The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

[chicanobudista]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Although I do apperciate the opportunity to discuss and debate things I don't believe we can come to any huge changes in the world through discussions.

[..] Dialogue helps them understand what's happening to them and how to cultivate this further. Of course, one wonderful way to cultivate it is Buddhist practice, which people only ever come to because someone mentioned it to them or they asked about it or read about it in a book.

Without dialogue, can the sutras exist? :wink:

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Although I do apperciate the opportunity to discuss and debate things I don't believe we can come to any huge changes in the world through discussions.

Au contraire... I believe that it's the only way to promote change. People do not change the way they are inside by being forced to outwardly conform to some standard. What makes people want to change is learning that they have alternatives... that there are other, better ways to be and to achieve their goals. No, a discussion doesn't radically transform a person into a perfect saint, but it plants seeds that may eventually bear fruit. You don't convince anyone of anything, that they should care about this or that. People wake up into compassion on their own, as they grow older, as things happen to them. Dialogue helps them understand what's happening to them and how to cultivate this further. Of course, one wonderful way to cultivate it is Buddhist practice, which people only ever come to because someone mentioned it to them or they asked about it or read about it in a book.

Maybe if we start with exercising metta towards ourselves for starters it will be easier for us to feel more engaged in what is going around? I think we can be cold or disengaged because we think things happen to others, because we humans believe we are isolated and separated from each other and the rest of the universe.

Our simple practice of zazen brings me closer to anyone else and compassion arises of it without me having to think of it. (I think Uchiyama writes about it in his book and would agree that without compassion ours is not a true practice). This is why I don't think that responding or taking action would be something of a duty, rather it would be a normal thing to do as it is a normal thing for a mother to protect her child. This interconnectedness of all things is there every moment but is easy to forget. Yet I am reminded of it every time I do not act in a skilfull way and get an "aftertaste": I feel bad because I treat someone in a bad way but actually it was myself I hurt.

Beautifully put. Compassion and kindness toward ourselves is very definitely the best way to begin, especially if deep down there is some disconnect rooted in self-loathing. Zazen definitely helps one deepen compassion. And compassion is so natural to who we are--I think it is the essence of the human condition. I also think sitting in zazen or something like it is very natural to human beings. Yet both of these things are also experienced as duties because we resist them naturally as well; it takes discipline and commitment to continue the practice day after day even when the going is hard.

Hi Steph

some deep thoughts here. In my simple mind - the point:

- sitting: by product - calmness, seeing repeating patterns of thoughts, less reactive, letting go quicker
- action: being kind, assertive, gentle, focused, forgiving

Kindest regards

Jools

A beautiful summation, Jools. Very nice. Thanks for that.

Gassho--

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

We can eat birthday cakes AND care about the world, right?

I think so

Thanks for the post. I was just reading about Joan Halifax Roshi and Upaya Zen Center.

http://www.upaya.org/index.php

Gassho Will

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

We can eat birthday cakes AND care about the world, right?

I really like the way The Interdependence project works and wish we had something like this here in Sweden (maybe we do???). It is a grassroots, community-oriented non-profit organization that focuses on meditation, activism, and the arts.

In his article

The Psychology of Ecology: Exploring the Internal Landscape of Consumption

one of the founders of the project Ethan Nichtern explians how they combine practicing active mindfulness and activism

regarding the most effective ways to be responsible stewards of Planet Earth... to witness what happens in our minds when we try to shift our habits.

Indifference is scary.

Indifference pretends to create peace, but it is based on not caring, a silent resignation.
It is a movement away, a separation fed by a subtle fear of the heart. We pull back, believing that what happens to others is not our concern. Our courage leaves us.
Indifference is a misguided way of defending ourselves.
—Jack Kornfield

Gassho,

Irina

[Shindo]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph

some deep thoughts here. In my simple mind - the point:

- sitting: by product - calmness, seeing repeating patterns of thoughts, less reactive, letting go quicker
- action: being kind, assertive, gentle, focused, forgiving

Kindest regards

Jools

ps - I aspire to the above and most days fail miserably

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Compassion has to come from the inside.
What are the solutions then?

Make a birthday cake?

G,W

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Stepahnie,

You wrote in response to Will's comment:

.. Yes, I believe that certain social phenomena are "wrong," but I don't believe the right approach is to violently try to force people to change, nor do I have a grand idea of exactly how people should behave and go about their daily lives (I'll leave that to Dogen). I strongly believe in the value of dialogue and debate, and in the simple power of presenting a different point of view, a different vision of how things can be, which people can then take or leave...

Although I do apperciate the opportunity to discuss and debate things I don't believe we can come to any huge changes in the world through discussions. :shock: Just to a couple of examples here. How would you reason/debate with someone who says "It is not my fault that I am born in a developed country, why would I too suffer because many people suffer someplace else?".

Debates or discussions by themselves do not make people more compassionate . Besides, we all can have different ideas as to what a perfect world should be like. Rawls's Veil of Ignorance proposal is one way to reason as to what kind of society is good/just to live in but then people would be making choices out of fear (because of the precondition of ignorance) that they would be the ones misfortunate to be born into poverty and not out of compassion for others.

In this country we have had discussions as to why women should be treated equally as men and should be paid as men are for the same jobs, we all agreed it would be a good/fair thing to do but individuals that make those decisions on the everyday basis often do not share those believes (probably they would never admit it publically :mrgreen: ) and we end up with women (on average) earning 70 % as compared to what men do.

Compassion has to come from the inside.
What are the solutions then?

Gassho,

Irina

[CinnamonGal]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Hi Steph,

Thanks for your post. I certainly understand your concerns and I often end up asking why I am not doing more, not getting engaged more...

The two Buddhists that I can think of as being compassionate and engaged are the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh. If they can be compassionate and engaged humans and Buddhists, why can't we?

Maybe if we start with exercising metta towards ourselves for starters it will be easier for us to feel more engaged in what is going around? I think we can be cold or disengaged because we think things happen to others, because we humans believe we are isolated and separated from each other and the rest of the universe.

Our simple practice of zazen brings me closer to anyone else and compassion arises of it without me having to think of it. (I think Uchiyama writes about it in his book and would agree that without compassion ours is not a true practice). This is why I don't think that responding or taking action would be something of a duty, rather it would be a normal thing to do as it is a normal thing for a mother to protect her child. This interconnectedness of all things is there every moment but is easy to forget. Yet I am reminded of it every time I do not act in a skilfull way and get an "aftertaste": I feel bad because I treat someone in a bad way but actually it was myself I hurt.

Maybe it is a little off the subject track but I guess what I came up with is that we seriously believe we are separate from what is around awhicn in itself is the cause of suffering and makes us belief we can have a luxury of not taking action or responding when we can.

Gassho,

Irina

One of the few truths I have discovered is that our capacity to imagine a better world and to work to bring it about, whatever it is, wherever it comes from, and whyever it exists, if there is any reason at all, is sacred; true awakening is not passive or self-indulgent, but is manifested as the recognition of a call to action. This is even modelled for us in the story of the Buddha's awakening: his first impulse was simply to enjoy his inner freedom, but then the Gods asked him to teach, to live a life of action for the benefit of sentient beings, and Indra and Brahma helped him realize his duty to the rest of the world as an awakened being. And I think that anyone who in their heart knows that something is wrong, whether or not they are perfectly enlightened, has a duty to respond to that knowledge. That is the Mahayana in action.

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

But I have to do the Macarena.

G,W

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I should add this, because the thought is so comical to me that I would think myself so good or wise that I should be able to enforce my ideas on others or think that others should want to be just like me. As I think I have made obvious here, my life can often be a Hell; I roam along the borders of insanity and can be downright nasty, petty, and self-indulgent. I am ferociously lonely, sometimes bitter, and often in some sort of pain. No one in their right mind would want my life; thank Indra that's not the point! The only time people actually "listen" to you is when your "speech" is not just words, but something you manifest; the only time I have had a positive impact on anyone is when compassion has come through, even in spite of the nastier stuff that gets in its way, which in turn arises largely due to the practice of zazen. Which brings us back to...

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

maybe if everyone one did their part and acted kindly to one another it would change the world much more than a grand revolution?
i think that do teach people and help them one by one... by living a life that is kind and compassionate we might actually help more than by trying to change everything that seems wrong.
live your life... day by day moment by moment while straving to do good and to avoid evil if everyone did that the world would be better than by any great movment to change the world and bring social justice...

but than again i may be wrong...

You may be, but I agree with you. I think that compassion is centered in the "little" things we do every day. I believe that there is a place for doing "big" things, but I think that those "big" efforts are only successful when they grow naturally out of the way we are in our daily lives and "mundane" interactions. The way that each of us manifests kindness or goodness will be different, and that is wonderful. And we might argue with each other about our priorities, but at the end of the day, kindness is kindness, and that's the source of all of it.

Your right Stephanie. And we should all follow what you say. Because there is only one perspective. Imaginary. And what are you going to do about it? Are you going to pass out flyers? Hit people on the head? Tell them to wake up. Yell at them? Dictate what each sentient being should be doing and not be doing? I'm not going to follow what you say and I don't see why anyone else should. I will do what I do. You do what you do. If that decision comes to me then I will face it then.

Will, I think you're reacting to stuff I haven't said. Yes, I believe that certain social phenomena are "wrong," but I don't believe the right approach is to violently try to force people to change, nor do I have a grand idea of exactly how people should behave and go about their daily lives (I'll leave that to Dogen). I strongly believe in the value of dialogue and debate, and in the simple power of presenting a different point of view, a different vision of how things can be, which people can then take or leave. I believe in the value of the effort of treating all people with respect and kindness, no matter who they are or what they've done. We can engage in work for change in a way that is constructive and creative, rather than controlling. This approach also involves an openness to the other's point of view, an interest in why they believe and act in the way they do, and a willingness to end up being the person who finds and admits you were wrong!

Aw, come on, Steph: 'Gods', 'what Buddha did', 'the Mahayana'... what a crock of religious sh*t you're buying into. How disappointing.

Get real. Real, authentic people are the most useful.

Want a verbose discourse on what constitutes 'authentic'?

Whatever you think it is, its not that.

Rock on, Sister. Don't believe the 'buddhist' hype.

Harry.

Harry, I find religious myth, language, and theory to be inspiring, but I'm not sure I'm "buying into" anything. I have no doctrine or dogma guiding me, and this is actually what plunges me into despair sometimes. But what I do see is the way certain images, words, and stories point to certain subjective experiences that many of us share but that are hard to talk about. I believe that religion is a fundamentally creative endeavor in the same way painting or music-making is, and that we lose something when we read as prose what should be read as poetry. Coming up with new myths is the apex of this creative endeavor, but it is not so easy and the old myths still carry resonance if engaged correctly, in my experience.

And yes, I actually would be interested in a verbose discourse on authenticity :wink:

[will]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice..

What I see is greed and ignorance causing unnecessary suffering, and a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them.

Your right Stephanie. And we should all follow what you say. Because there is only one perspective. Imaginary. And what are you going to do about it? Are you going to pass out flyers? Hit people on the head? Tell them to wake up. Yell at them? Dictate what each sentient being should be doing and not be doing? I'm not going to follow what you say and I don't see why anyone else should. I will do what I do. You do what you do. If that decision comes to me then I will face it then.

a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them

And a world full of people who nurse the wounds of victims. Who feed those who have no food. Who care for the sick and dying. Who give shelter to those who have none. Who smile and laugh in the midst of opression. Who plant trees. Who fight for and inform about environmental concerns. Who give a hug. Who work with the mentally ill. Who fight for humanitarian rights. Who raise a child. Who give orphns a homeand an education. Who pick up garbage off of the streets. Who show compassion in little ways that you don't read about in the paper, or on the news, or on the internet, in books, magazines, newspapers, or journals.

Buddhism is one of the most important of all. Buddhism works with the root of all suffering. Where would the world turn if there were no monks and teachers who have given up their life for helping all living beings. If you don't truly understand this point in your heart, then you have gained no understanding, or wisdom from your practice.

One of the few truths I have discovered is that our capacity to imagine a better world and to work to bring it about, whatever it is, wherever it comes from, and whyever it exists, if there is any reason at all, is sacred; true awakening is not passive or self-indulgent, but is manifested as the recognition of a call to action. This is even modelled for us in the story of the Buddha's awakening: his first impulse was simply to enjoy his inner freedom, but then the Gods asked him to teach, to live a life of action for the benefit of sentient beings, and Indra and Brahma helped him realize his duty to the rest of the world as an awakened being. And I think that anyone who in their heart knows that something is wrong, whether or not they are perfectly enlightened, has a duty to respond to that knowledge. That is the Mahayana in action.

Imaginary. Fight the good fight Steph, but don't expect me to fight with you, your way.

Thank you for your efforts
Gassho

[Chris H]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

What I see is greed and ignorance causing unnecessary suffering, and a world full of people that know a lot of things are wrong, but are in denial or too cynical to do anything about them.

And Buddhism, if it is anything, is a way to free yourself from greed, and the ignorance that creates it. Many people would argue that avarice itself is the root of all evil. Buddhism posits it is the root of all suffering. People can call themselves whatever they want, Zen Master Rama, whatever, and do bad things in its name, but it would seem if one is living their true buddha nature and imparting that to others, they are doing as much as anyone to make the world better.

[Dainin]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

Deleted

[Chris H]

Re: The point of Shikantaza-based Zen practice...

I totally agree Zen. I certainly admire leaders of movements and people that stand in front of tanks and all that dramatic stuff, but I think the world is ultimately saved one person at a time, and our greatest power to effect that is in the direct commerce we have with people every day—family members, co-workers, people outside our door etc. Every action is a pattern you put into the world for further actions. Favors, good-will, are passed on. It may not be as inspirational or sexy but there it is.

(At least I hope so because, y'know, I'm just not Ghandi.)