The First Precept and Eating Meat

[Joyo]

I'm with Shingen and Jundo in this. And I know I'm not popular for saying this...

Eating meat is always a tricky question and a lot of people are not objective. They feel good about not eating meat, but will chew live vegetables (which protect their lives with bio chemical reactions) or have fermented food like yogurt (billions of living beings that will get dissolved in acid in our stomachs! How's that for cruelty).

I have know a lot of vegan radicals that will attack everyone who eats meat, but wear cotton clothes or use electricity which are industries that destroy entire echo systems.

Some other vegans will spread hate over social media, but have cars and computers which have tons of animal products in their basic components.

If you scratch your skin, comb your hair, breathe or brush your teeth, you are taking millions of lives. Why is it that those lives are not important?

Being alive means to take millions of lives to keep on living.

I think it all comes to the reverence, gratitude and respect you have for the lives you take. And then you only take what you need to live, not more.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

Exactly! Thank you, Kyonin.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Taiyo]

I think it all comes to the reverence, gratitude and respect you have for the lives you take. And then you only take what you need to live, not more.

Sat/LAH

Gassho,
Taiyo

SatToday/LAH

[Meian]

My stepsister and her husband are both devout vegans, but not obnoxious about it. I don't mean that as an insult - they are compassionate people. We are preparing for a graduation party for our teenager this weekend (I am highly stressed over this, many people, conflicting personalities, etc), and my daughter and i will be preparing the vegan food for our vegan relatives.

I've been vegan, and vegetarian, and now prefer vegan/vegetarian but I will eat what is available. Why? Because we were a "food bank" family at one point and my memories of that experience are still very clear - I am grateful to have food, I give thanks for whatever food we have.

However, there are many salient points and ideas mentioned in this thread. I've been reading and thinking - and forgetting, but I'll reread and get the idea of it. Thank you for so many great perspectives and links. I wrote articles on this topic (factory farming and slaughterhouses) years ago, so i am informed on it. It is a complicated, politically charged issue - and ultimately an intensely personal, private choice as well. Each person's biochemistry is different - attacks are unwarranted and unfair.

My 2 cents.

Gassho
Kim
(Chanted today) lah

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[PClark1]

So many wonderful perspectives.

Gassho
Paul

Sat today

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[Suuko]

This is a very interesting thread. I stopped eating meat since 2014. For some reason, my body stopped processing it. I remember going to a restaurant and felt suffocated when I ate chicken. I feel really bad when I see animals tied up for sale. I fully get the argument that vegetables are living beings but they don't have a nervous system to feel pain and they don't have a brain to process pain. I'd eat egg in a cake but not eat a chicken. I remember eating chicken once and I had a flash of animals being killed with cries. This was a turning point in my journey.

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.

[Shinshou]

It is true that life feeds on life.

But if we are to follow Jishin's advice and view the precepts as a mechanism to decrease global suffering, then Jika's post is extremely relevant (except perhaps for the eating thin handicapped people, but I see the point). The WHO declared long ago that the most effective daily action any human can take to decrease the damage done to both our planet and other humans is to reduce or stop meat consumption. As far as combating climate change and food shortage, it is more effective than driving a hybrid, recycling, going "off-grid" for power, or anything else.

I have maintained a strict rule that as a vegetarian, I will never tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't eat as long as they treat me the same. I do wish many vegans subscribed to the same philosophy.

Sat today

[Suuko]

I have maintained a strict rule that as a vegetarian, I will never tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't eat as long as they treat me the same. I do wish many vegans subscribed to the same philosophy.

Sat today

I have the same rule for spirituality. I don't go around convincing people about Zen or spirituality. There's no need for it. Zen is natural. if we had to push for it, it wouldn't be zen.

[Jishin]

MEAT CONSUMPTION AND CANCER RISK:

http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/diet-cancer/facts/meat-consumption-and-cancer-risk

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Shinshou]

Jundo, for fear of being inappropriate, I will refrain from, or at least postpone, commenting at length on your reasoning. For now I will only say that the value of a creature's life isn't dependent on whether it contemplates its own death, and that the idea that killing animals to save them from some imagined violent, stressful existence seems like a red herring - they're being slaughtered because their bodies are delicious, not because violence and death from human hands are more desirable than violence and death at the hands of nature.

Sat Today

[Joyo]

I have maintained a strict rule that as a vegetarian, I will never tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't eat as long as they treat me the same. I do wish many vegans subscribed to the same philosophy.

Sat today

For the most part I"m a silent vegan, that is I don't tell people. Partly because I"m a very private person, partly because I've had some terribly rude comments from people who cannot imagine why a person would not eat meat.

Ironically, I grew up on a dairy farm and ranch and I don't eat meat or consume dairy products. =)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Meian]

In this thread, the links and the discussion (even the controversy), I am finding new ways and ideas to choose a vegetarian diet more easily. Also, I'm noticing something about living more openly Buddhist - even if vegetarian is not a requirement, people seem to associate Buddhism with vegetarians. I noticed this when people began subtly pointing out vegetarian dishes to me at gatherings, and my husband took me to a Yogi vegan cafe for Mothers Day

So many great articles, links, ideas here. I usually have to go solo on these things (without help or advice, or who to ask), but here is a forum full of it, without the judgment I feel less weird and isolated now, thank you.

Gassho
Kim
Chanted, lah

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[Jundo]

Jundo, for fear of being inappropriate, I will refrain from, or at least postpone, commenting at length on your reasoning. For now I will only say that the value of a creature's life isn't dependent on whether it contemplates its own death, and that the idea that killing animals to save them from some imagined violent, stressful existence seems like a red herring - they're being slaughtered because their bodies are delicious, not because violence and death from human hands are more desirable than violence and death at the hands of nature.

Sat Today

Hi Daniel,

I understand this, and I believe that vegetarianism is the better way for the animals, for people and for the world.

But the historical Buddha does not appear to have been fully vegetarian, most Japanese Buddhists consume at least fish if not other meats, and I believe that the story is not fully black and white. I also do not believe that animals ponder the implications of their own deaths in the way that homo sapiens do. For that reason, I would not insist that one needs to be vegetarian to be a good Buddhist.

I will also tell you about the countless animals unavoidably killed in the agricultural production of vegetables. Granted, they tend to be "lower" species such as insects, worms, mice and rats, raccoons, crows and the like. However, the farmers where I live must kill untold numbers just to protect the carrots and cabbages. They also die for our benefits, lives and tastes.

That said, the entire world system of food production is now wasteful and terrible, both for people and for the environment. The whole system should be reformed.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

PS - When I was recently in India (a place where all the terribleness of our modern agricultural and food distribution systems comes together), I was reminded of the famous debate on doctrine between the Jains, some of whom wear face masks to avoid inhaling insects ...



... , and the Buddhists who generally would not go so far. (I believe the following is a reliable description):

In Buddhism, the opinion of Ahimsa [non-violence] was utilized to take care of battles that could cause warfare via directing individuals to shun harming others. In contrast, in Jainism, extensive actions were undertaken to shun hurting even the least known creatures via promises that apprehended believers indebted to stick to the non-hostile principle. Literature shows that on the Jain custom, vegetarianism was obligatory to avert human beings from feeding on animals as hostility towards animals is against the doctrine of Ahimsa. In the Jain religion, slaughtering animals for ritual sacrifice as well as by expertise hunters is perceived as a sin as there is no kind of hurt towards animals is recognized in the society (Dundas 37).

The comprehension as well as enactment of Ahimsa is a responsibility to every person and the statement is inscribed on all temples with an aim of averting destructive karma impacts. The religion as well attempts to safeguard unessential damage to plants as they are also a part of living organisms. Even though plants ought to be utilized as food, the damage is solitary acceptable in cases where it backs survival of humans and therefore unwanted damage ought to be shunned (Dundas 38). In contrast, In the Buddhist practice, Ahimsa is a little bit merciful in comparison to Jain custom as slaughtering of animals is permitted to some point. the religion is against violence as well as harm towards living creatures, even though vegetarianism is not obligatory between all the orders of human taxonomies. For example, monks and laypersons are permitted to take meat as long as the animal in question was slaughtered for eating. Nevertheless, in Mahayana, monks are banned from taking meat and common people are spurred to be vegetarians and evade feeding on meat (Lodha 20).

Sheer cautiousness is necessary to shun harm to small insects and therefore, Jains are not allowed to go out at night as they may step on these creatures. The religious lessons emphasizes that harm wreaked by negligence is equivalent to that caused by cautious measure and therefore people should be careful always. For instance, to reduce hostility towards bees during harvesting and interference of their day to day activities, Jains are not permitted to eat honey. Even though agriculture is not banned as plants are perceived as the core source of food, a number of devotees stay away from farming to shun damaging as well as hurting animals that live in the soil such as worms and insects (Lodha 21). Contrary, non-violence to living creatures identifies the karmic effects that may follow the slaughter of a particular animal in question. For example, Buddhists perceive that a person who purposely slaughters an animals is in danger of being attacked by the animal in coming days. Giving credit to Ahimsa offers supernatural authority as well as redemption to safeguard a person from diverse types of risks that are as a result of slaughter.

[Joyo]

I will also tell you about the countless animals unavoidably killed in the agricultural production of vegetables. Granted, they tend to be "lower" species such as insects, worms, mice and rats, raccoons, crows and the like. However, the farmers where I live must kill untold numbers just to protect the carrots and cabbages. They also die for our benefits, lives and tastes.



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

This is very true, Jundo. My family also farmed land. I recall several times our farm cats were out in the field and got caught in swathers, I saw badgers getting killed, gophers were killed and their homes destroyed.

All I can think of to do is eat responsibly, eat with respect, and do what we can to contribute to peace in the world for all beings including plants, vegetables, and all animals.

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

[PClark1]

I was a vegetarian for eight years, the first time I was a vegetarian. Someone then told me then that it was a noble pursuit, but to not be overly proud in it, because it was impossible to exist without destroying. We destroy to create. We kill trees to build shelter. We kill cells in our own bodies to be reborn every morning. It is important to limit our negative impact, but it's also important to see the true nature of our impact and not to get too proud of our limited efforts.

Gassho,
Paul

Sat today

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