The First Precept and Eating Meat

[Heigan]

Hi Treeleaf,

I've been mulling over something for a while and thought I'd throw the question to the community at large. The first precept is Do Not Kill. There's the obvious interpretation about not killing another being in a direct sense. Others extend it to include eating meat. Do not kill or cause another to be killed. So here's the question:

If a being has already been killed is it still an issue to eat the meat?

I've been thinking about this in the context of the grocery store where the meat was obviously killed some time in the past and if it is not consumed by me, it will either be eaten by another or go to waste. Part of me actually feels like eating the meat is honoring the sacrifice of the animal so that their life can support mine.

For the record, it's not a question of break the precepts = committing a sin, etc... It's more a question of what is the best way to honor these animals.

As always, I love and appreciate each and everyone of you for your insight and support.

Gassho,

Heigan
#SATTODAY

[PClark1]

I can't, and won't speak for anyone else, but I view purchasing meat in the grocery store as support and continuation of the industry that kills for profit. Having said that, before deciding to become a vegetarian, I had purchased a side of beef. We are eating what is left of it, one meal a week until it is gone. Basically because the animal died for our purchase and we feel it would be a waste of the life not to eat it. Each time we do, it's a reminder of why we chose to change our eating habits and once it's gone we will not purchase meat again.

Again, only speaking for my family.

Gassho,

Paul
Sat today

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[Joyo]

If you buy the chicken in the grocery store today, another will be killed to restock the shelves tomorrow.


Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Mp]

Hello Heigan,

First off one of the important things when it comes to this precept, in my opinion is whats in one's heart. If you have gratitude and respect for the animal that has given its life for you, then you have not broken that precept. Even if the source of the meat is questionable (i.e. who may have processed the meat) when you are about to consume it, so gratitude and respect.

I am vegan, but this form of eating is not for everyone, the choice is up to you. If we do buy meat or meat products, yes, we should do our best to get it from responsible sources. But again, this is not always the case.

Sometimes in life life has to be taken, but if we do it with compassion, gratitude, and humility we will be doing it for the right reason. Also as a side note, even if someone is a vegan or vegitarian, this does not exclude them from killing or taking life ... this too happens when harvasting veggies and the like.

I hope this helps.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Shinshou]

My rule for 21 years, long before I even read about Buddhism, is that I won't eat anything that has or had a mother. Even as a Christian, I thought about if humans weren't the dominant species on the planet, how would I feel if we were raised for another species' enjoyment, and our whole existence predicated on the flavor of our bodies? But that's just general, not in reference to any precept.

I have a hard time thinking about eating something as honoring it. Giving metta, burying, remembrance, holding ceremony...these are things that humans in modern culture do to honor spent lives, those of loved humans and loved animals alike. I don't want to give you the impression however that I think humans and other animals should be treated equally. Goats don't vote, bear arms don't bare arms.

Dan
Sat today

[Entai]

I stopped eating meat 27 years ago. I don't think that will ever change. What did change (when studying for Jukai) was my whole take on "killing" with respect to food. While I couldn't intentionally kill an animal, plant life dies for my survival. And to take it a step further, it's very possible that the vegetables on my plate could have fed any number of rabbits, etc. Did any die when their food source went to me? There are all sorts of scenarios. I think in the end we need to understand that all living things need nourishment to continue living. It's unavoidable. I try to be mindful, grateful and respectful of whatever is sustaining me. And I vow to use my life to be of service to others.

Gassho,
Entai
Sat today /LAH

[Jundo]

I will post the following, which is my usual comment when the topic comes up (as it has many time) ...

What I will offer here is merely my personal view, and should not be taken as more than my own individual interpretation and reflection on the Precepts and Buddhist traditions. I feel that each person needs to find their own way here, and their own place within the Precept on the Avoidance of Taking Life as well as the general call to be kind to our fellow sentient beings. (I have had people in the past who have left this Sangha because I have failed to call for a strictly vegetarian diet for all Buddhists, so I know how sensitive this topic is for many).

We have discussed vegetarianism many times in the past, usually in connection with our Jukai Precept reflections each year:

Many people do not realize that the historical Buddha (Guatama Buddha) was not quite vegetarian according to the original texts. Here is a summary.

Monks then as now were expected to accept offerings from the faithful graciously and without question. Therefore, it is likely that the Buddha ate meat, since meat was a part of the offerings he received. However, it's also quite likely that he did not want animals killed specifically for his or his followers consumption. For example, the code of conduct for Buddhist Monks (ascribed to the Buddha) has a specific reference to the meat of an animal.

If a bhikkhu sees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it. - Mahavagga of the Vinaya Pitaka

Here is a more detailed discussion of the debate about the original texts on this issue, Note that, for the most part, the later Mahayana Sutras and Chinese customs were more decidedly vegetarian, although the older Pali Suttas were not. As commented here, according to the early Sutras, "In fact, if meat were put into a monk's alms bowl, the monk was supposed to eat it. Monks were to gratefully receive and consume all food they were given, including meat."

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbu...etarianism.htm

Many Northern Asian Buddhists do consume meat, Tibetan Buddhists have been traditionally meat eaters, in large part because the climate of Tibet was not hospitable to vegetable farming. A small bit of trivia is that the Dalai Lama, like many in the Tibetan traditions, is not vegetarian either ... He was briefly, then returned to eating meat for health reasons.

Quotes on Vegetarianism by the World's Most Famous Buddhist-
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama (1989 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate):

In the mid 1960s, the Dalai Lama was impressed by ethically vegetarian Indian monks and adopted a vegetarian diet for about a year and a half. Apparently he consumed primarily nuts and milk. Unfortunately, he contracted Hepatitis B and his liver was seriously damaged. For health reasons, he was advised by his personal physicians to consume meat. While he has eaten meat in moderation ever since, the Dalai Lama has repeatedly acknowledged that a vegetarian diet is a worthy expression of compassion and contributes to the cessation of the suffering of all living beings. However, he eats meat only on alternate days (six months a year). He is a semi-vegetarian, though he wishes to be a full one. By making an example of cutting his meat consumption in half, he is trying to gently influence his followers.

"While many of the great Tibetan teachers did and do eat animals, the Dalai Lama has broken new ground by publicly stating his case for vegetarianism. If we seriously consider the compassion inherent in His Holiness’ advice and actions, Buddhist meat-eaters could similarly try to eat vegetarian at least every other day to start out with. Since Buddhists have taken vows not to kill, they should not support a livelihood that makes others kill. Even if one does not have great compassion for animals this would meritoriously save humans from performing heinous deeds. The power of each human being becoming vegetarian releases the most intense suffering of the animal realm—the agony of factory-farmed animals. This profound action can help slow the grinding wheels of samsara, bringing to a halt the cycles of suffering of the entire animal realm and influencing their eventual liberation. When animals are not just looked upon as creatures to fill our stomachs, they can be seen as they really are—beings who have the same Buddha nature as we all do."

Full vegetarianism seems to have developed with some of the Mahayana Sutras, and in Chinese Buddhism. My understanding is that many in South Asia still follow the "whatever is placed in the bowl" rule. One begins to see calls for strict vegetarianism in Mahayana Sutras such as the Shurangama, written long centuries after the time of the historical Buddha.

6p 20-21 "Ananda, I permit the Bhikshus to eat five kinds of pure meat. This meat is actually a transformation brought into being by my spiritual powers. It basically has no life-force. Those of you Brahmans who live in a climate so hot and humid, and on such sandy and rocky land, that vegetables will not grow; therefore, I have had to assist you with spiritual powers and compassion. Because of this magnanimous kindness and compassion, this so-called meat suits your taste. After my extinction, how can those who eat the flesh of beings be called the disciples of Shakya?

6p 22 "You should know that these people who eat meat may gain some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they are all great rakshasas [a malignant demon]. When their retribution ends, they are bound to sink into the bitter sea of birth and death. They are not disciples of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle. How can such people transcend the Triple Realm?

Japanese Buddhist priests of all schools are generally allowed to eat meat and fish, although some do not as a matter of personal choice. Meat is generally not served within the large monasteries, but priests do eat meat and fish outside and in the individual temples. Nishijima Roshi ate meat and fish, in moderation. He thought that there are certain proteins and such that can only be had from meat and fish, and that we are naturally meant to eat some meat. However, he was not in any way an expert on the bio-chemistry of vegetarianism, so many vegetarians over the years have told me that his understanding of replacing those proteins with other sources like tofu and such was wrong. I passed the information on to him while he was alive, but he did not change his opinion prior to his death at age 94.

I eat meat, chicken and fish, although I try to limit the amount of red meat. I am not prepared to ask people to abandon all meat eating.

However, I realize that we need to do better on insisting on the humane treatment of animals, including those on farms, butchered for our consumption, and in Zoos and pet stores for our amusement. I believe that this is the modern interpretation of the Buddha's injunction, and we should not consume meat which we know, or reasonably suspect, has been raised or slaughtered under poor conditions. We should work diligently for the improvement of those conditions.

I am going to say something which is likely to get me in trouble with some folks:

I do not believe that most animals, including those of higher intelligence such as pigs and cows, have the same anticipation or dread of future death as human beings (as opposed to an immediate threat), and I do not believe that they measure their lives by the same clock we do. I do not believe that animals, if properly cared for, sit in their holding pens mulling the existential futility of life, their dreams of what might have been, the wild travel and adventures they are missing, worrying about the heaven or hell which awaits, as humans are prone to do. In fact, I do not believe that, apart from fear in the face of an immediately perceived and present threat or pain, they sit imaging what might become of them (like humans who picture a possible plane crash while heading for the airport) or worry about their life expectancy years down the road. We must avoid anthropomorphic projections upon animals, imaging that what they feel in their minds is what we would feel in such a situation. If we were to properly manage our farms, and the mechanism of killing ... removing all perceived threat and pain from the process ... I do not believe that they would feel dread, fear or suffering in any way.

Further, nature is the harshest and cruelest place for most animals. It is simply true. If it is a matter of being victims of violence and disease, pain, stress, injury, short life spans, bloody deaths, loss of children and family members, exposure to cold and the elements ... the jungle is a jungle, and even the forests are not a peaceable kingdom. If properly treated, the animals on our farms could have better, more pleasant ... even longer, less stressful and healthier ... lives than they might expect at the hands of nature.

Perhaps it is our duty to see that it is so. If we are to consume meat, we should see that the animals are well treated and cared for while alive, killed without pain.

Likewise, as I see in the farming area where I live, even vegetable farming has an impact on the environment and on animals, and we must reform our methods to have more concern for this world.

I am not going to compare the treatment of animals in farm factories with the treatment of human beings in Nazi prison camps (as some sometimes do). The reason is simply that human beings are subject to higher thought, more complex emotions, remembrance of the past or dread of the imagined future, comparisons with other potential fates, and awareness of their situation than animals. Human beings do contemplate the future, feel types of mental suffering based on thinking of their situation, in ways that animals just do not. In any case, both human beings in a prison and animals on a farm should be treated humanely, free of pain and distress to the degree possible.

Nature built us to eat. We are animals ourselves. The food chain is based on our taking from nature to feed ourselves, although feeling gratitude at the gift of life which we are thus given. Our bodies are designed for the consumption of meat. I believe that we should not cause extra suffering to the beasts which support our lives. I believe that, perhaps in the near future, science will design and improve meat substitutes or artificial meat which will remove all need to take life. I also celebrate the choice by anyone to pursue a healthy vegetarian lifestyle (which, by the way, can be itself unhealthy if not properly managed). I believe it is a good choice to turn away from the consumption of meat, and it proclaims that we are better than our animal nature. However, as the Buddha himself did not forsake all meat eating ... especially for lay people, let alone priests ... I am not prepared to do so.

I call on all of us to support better conditions and more humane treatment on our farms, and the introduction of better techniques and technology to handle these animals ...

... but I will not say that we must abandon all meat eating.

This is just my personal view.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

https://youtu.be/sG3FDHI1QSM

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Hi,

All the precepts are very easy if you have direction: decrease global suffering. Eat meat or anything else only for the benefit of others. Take life only for the benefit of others.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jika]

Thank you all for your answers.

And thank you, Jishin, for posting the link.

The industrial production of meat is a cause of world hunger and climate change.
I know many people think this does not exist or is exaggerated.

But if any of you try to buy climate friendly regional products, use their car less, think about helping the hungry -
producing beef (mass producing chicken etc) uses plant foods and agricultural space and lots, lots of water that can't be used to feed humans directly.
In my area, the groundwater is critically contaminated by liquid manure.
We don't have enough space to put out the dung, chicken farms pay farmers internationally to get rid of it.

Meat production creates more carbon dioxide than all transport.

I know many people who dislike long distance flights because it is so obviously wasting resources.
But they have no problem eating meat every day.

For me, the question is not if a cow has a similar mind to mine before becoming beef.
We don't eat the mentally disabled or the old, why?
We are way too many humans on the planet anyway, and some are pretty useless.
Why not eat those. (Don't put this on Twitter. Someone might actually do it.)

We ruin our planet, we make people starve, it would be more logical to eat those people directly.
Only they are so thin.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

[Billy]

Hello,

I live in and grew up in a rural area where hunting is common. I know people that would not be able to provide proper nourishment to their family without hunting and storing meat.
Growing up poor, animals that my father killed 'rabbits, deer, fish, etc' fed us many times.
He, and most people here, frown upon killing for 'fun'. He always drilled into me to 'clean what you kill' and you are expected to eat it, little is wasted.
I do not have to hunt to eat thankfully but I would if I needed to for my family.

I do think that animals should not live a life in a 'mass production farm' though. The conditions are pretty bad for them.
Locally here, there are a few farms that have 'open range' animals which I think is better. Some families rase a hog or two, or free range chickens for food.
I always measure it by by asking myself "how much did the animal suffer"?

Also, this questioning of killing made me think of the monks in the Vietnam war 'killing themselves in protest'. Did they break the precept?
Or killing to end the unnecessary suffering of an injured animal?

Just my personal thoughts and opinions,

Billy
SayTodayLAH

[Jishin]

The First Precept and Eating Meat

From: "Bodies, The Exhibition"

IMG_0138.JPGIMG_0139.JPG

IMG_0073.JPGIMG_0074.JPGIMG_0075.JPG

Meat is meat, no?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Caisson]

Much truth available in this thread! Jika has hit the nail on the head in my opinion. The one thing about humans is we never stop consuming(killing?). We've become the "top of the food chain" through our own ignorance and greed. I don't know what the population differences are between the Buddha's time and what is present today, yet it seems to have reached a level of obscene. Our race has not just lost compassion for itself, it has lost compassion for the planet that supports it, especially here in the US. It is true that there are glimmers of hope but hope is not a tactic to solve a problem. I agree 100% with Jundo sensei. We have to be led by our heart-mind. The planet itself is sentient as is everything upon it. It saddens me to see just how many people are asleep to that fact. IMO, walk in compassion and moderation. You will know what to eat and why you're eating it, hoping that neither of you suffer. Just my two cents.

Metta to all what suffer through this age.

Gassho,
Caisson
sattoday/LAH

[Kyonin]

If you have gratitude and respect for the animal that has given its life for you, then you have not broken that precept. Even if the source of the meat is questionable (i.e. who may have processed the meat) when you are about to consume it, so gratitude and respect.

I'm with Shingen and Jundo in this. And I know I'm not popular for saying this...

Eating meat is always a tricky question and a lot of people are not objective. They feel good about not eating meat, but will chew live vegetables (which protect their lives with bio chemical reactions) or have fermented food like yogurt (billions of living beings that will get dissolved in acid in our stomachs! How's that for cruelty).

I have know a lot of vegan radicals that will attack everyone who eats meat, but wear cotton clothes or use electricity which are industries that destroy entire echo systems.

Some other vegans will spread hate over social media, but have cars and computers which have tons of animal products in their basic components.

If you scratch your skin, comb your hair, breathe or brush your teeth, you are taking millions of lives. Why is it that those lives are not important?

Being alive means to take millions of lives to keep on living.

I think it all comes to the reverence, gratitude and respect you have for the lives you take. And then you only take what you need to live, not more.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Tai Shi]

To Kyonin, now I trust you!'

About eating meat. I know that at one time my wife and I tried to follow a vegetarian life-style, but we could only follow it for 6 months, and this was in our late 20s and now we are in our 60s, oh we thought we were hippie wanabes. We had been reading literature, "Diet for a Small Planet." In fact, we still own this book, and books on Tofu Cooking, and a book Recipes from a vegetarian farm cookbook. Even today we will make good banana bread from a recipe in one of these books. Now we often avoid lots of red meat only for health, but I have read that if all the food, including meat, were consumed properly in this world, there would be enough for everyone of us including starving people. Kyonin is right. When we consume food (all food) with respect, including chocolate, oh my wife, chuckle, then we like and savor the taste of all good food, and food is taken with respect.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho