Why to be a nun/monk/priest?

[Myo-jin]

I can answer that!

In the Nyoho tradition of Kesa sewing within Soto Zen, lay or priest who have undertaken the Precepts can sew or wear full Kesa. However, both wear a special handsewn style called "Nyoho-e."

https://sanshin-source.weebly.com/sawaki-nyohoe-treasury.html

It is actually not so far from Chinese tradition, where lay folks who have taken Precepts wear a full Kesa, although it is slightly different style from the priests Kesa. Here is a picture of some lay folks receiving their version of the Kesa on the Continent after taking the 5 Precepts ...

image.pngimage.png

Gassho, J
stlah

Thanks Jundo, for providing that context. I believe that Dogen also mentions that all followers of the way should receive the robe, although I forget the exact place he says it.

I do accept that there could be some confusion, as a rule I usually wear the Rakusu, and certainly wouldn’t wear the Okesa outside of a Nyoho-e context, to avoid confusion.

While I realised that I wasn’t really in a position to serve as a priest, and so turned away from that path, I did, and still do feel dedicated to the path. Thus wearing the rakusu or Okesa is for me an expression of that refuge taking within the limits of my life as a lay person.

Gassho
Sattlah
Myojin

[Jundo]

...I believe that Dogen also mentions that all followers of the way should receive the robe, although I forget the exact place he says it.

Yes. In Shobogenzo-Kesa Kudoku, for example, Dogen writes ...

... among humans, the number of excellent examples cannot be calculated. Lay bodhisattvas have all accepted and keep to it. In China, both Emperor Wu of the Liang dynasty and Emperor Yang of the Sui dynasty accepted and kept to the kesa. Both Emperor T’ai-tsung and Emperor Su-tsung of the T’ang dynasty wore the kesa, trained and studied amidst the monastic family, and accepted and kept to the Bodhisattva Precepts. Other folks—such as lay disciples and their wives—who have accepted the kesa and taken the Precepts have been excellent models in both the past and the present. ...

... what is now passed on directly by the Buddhas and Ancestors is that kesas are all backstitched [same as Priest Kesas], whether conferred on rulers, ministers of state, lay disciples, or ordinary folk. A good example of this is the Sixth Chinese Ancestor Enō who had already received the genuine Transmission of the Buddha’s kesa while he was still the temple servant known as Lu.

.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Mujin]

Oh yes. We have those at Treeleaf too, and it is quite traditional in Buddhism and Zen. In fact, perhaps only a small minority of monks in Asian monasteries received "Dharma Transmission" as full masters themselves, while most were in other roles in the temple (gardeners, cooks, general rank and file monks). In Japan, this changed as priesthood became primarily about qualification for managing a local, parish temple, typically inherited from father to son, so almost all priests would receive Dharma Transmission as qualification to do that. In the West, Dharma Transmission is typically NOT associated with inheriting a temple. Instead, most teachers look for successors who truly embody our ways, have understanding, ethical behavior, exhibit deep Wisdom and Compassion and will keep the flame of this Way burning into the next generation.

We have excellent priests at Treeleaf too who are not particularly focused on Dharma Transmission as any goal (it really should never be a goal anyway). Such priests are just out there, helping Sentient Beings.

Gassho, J
stlah

So one can be a priest without Dharma Transmission? What is the difference? I ask because I have been contemplating for a while now about applying for admission to the Monastery of Open Doors. I have been feeling a draw to helping people from the Zen perspective/teaching.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

So one can be a priest without Dharma Transmission? What is the difference? I ask because I have been contemplating for a while now about applying for admission to the Monastery of Open Doors. I have been feeling a draw to helping people from the Zen perspective/teaching.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

You would still be expected to engage in Training, practice and learning our traditions, to place yourself in a role of service primarily. One is now focused on others. We ask that the person already have shown their dedication to the Soto Zen path for about ten years or more. There is a year's wait for Ordination, as we eye the person's sincerity too. It is not easy. It cannot be about the applicant. Dharma Transmission aside, you would be a Novice Priest-in-Training with no authority to guide others for some years, apart from special circumstances.

I receive many inquiries. Most are not right for the role, for one reason or another. MoD is not simple to join.

Of course, if someone wants to apply, contact me and we can discuss it. There is, however, an application process and some hurdles to pass.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Shoshin]

Not a priest and not about to be but I did consider it for a while after jukai, so this is more my thoughts on why I decided not to pursue the priesthood.

At that point, I was full of enthusiasm, but it seemed to me that while I wanted to dive in to the dharma, I needed to do so for the right reasons. So rather than ‘should I ordain?’ I changed it around to ‘am I the kind of person who should ordain?’.

needless to say, aside from personal desire I could think of no good reason to do so, I could see no way my ordaining would benefit anybody, so I dropped the issue. Receiving the precepts and Okesa is more than I could have hoped for, that’s enough.

gassho
sattlah
Myojin

Thanks!
I'm curious to know why you think that your ordination wouldn't benefit others
Would you mind sharing?


Gassho
Satlah

[Shoshin]

Being a novice here, please take my comments with a pinch of salt and of course always pay more attention to senior and transmitted priests.



My wish for ordination began in 1978. Specifically, I was covered in mud, digging a vegetable patch in the rain, in the grounds of Chittaviveka, when a nun brought me a mug of tea. She held out the mug, I hesitated (a man is not allowed to receive anything directly from a Thai nun, she must set it down, for the man to pick up) but she said: "It's OK, I'm not going to put it down in the mud". That act of kindness was enormous and had a profound effect on me.

My understanding of the role of a monk developed over time and I grew to admire the monks/nuns/priests that I met - for their kindness. I thought that being around these people night someday help me to develop more compassion for others.


I should not have been surprised, but I was surprised, at the amount of decision making, discussion and organising that priests do behind the scenes.


I hope that I may be of help to someone.


A lay person promises to keep the precepts. In addition, as a priest, I feel responsible - as a custodian of our tradition.


I see priesthood as a way of serving/helping others.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.

Also, I loved the story about the mug

Gassho
Satlah

[Shoshin]

Thank you, Shoshin. So far, I haven't been consciously writing "Zen" literature, although I do express my values. I am thinking of writing stories inspired by Dōgen or koans, although in the end, the starting point may be unrecognizable. I have to be careful not to write "message" stories that are propaganda and not entertaining - to just write windows into how things are or could be.

Gassho Onkai
Sat lah

Thanks!
"just write windows into how things are or could be."
I loved that. Do you know the "Solar punk genre"?
It is about this.

I believe that reality shapes art but are definitely shapes reality too. Storytelling, specially fiction, is unfortunately too much about grim futures or about the worst aspects of humanity. Those stories make us believe that things cannot be different.
I really think that we need a different narrative to believe that another world is possible.

Gassho
Satlah

[Onkai]

Thanks!
"just write windows into how things are or could be."
I loved that. Do you know the "Solar punk genre"?
It is about this.

I believe that reality shapes art but are definitely shapes reality too. Storytelling, specially fiction, is unfortunately too much about grim futures or about the worst aspects of humanity. Those stories make us believe that things cannot be different.
I really think that we need a different narrative to believe that another world is possible.

Gassho
Satlah

I've never heard of the "solar punk genre" I will have to look it up. By "how things are or could be" I mean emotional truths. I like speculative fiction.

Gassho Onkai

[Myo-jin]

Thanks!
I'm curious to know why you think that your ordination wouldn't benefit others
Would you mind sharing?


Gassho
Satlah

Hi Shoshin,

The short answer (we like short answers), I'm simply spread to thinly these days.

To my mind, Ordination is really a path of service. In my current state of life, that of householder, there's little extra bandwidth, to the point where many pastimes and other things have been put on hold. Taking on the responsibilities that ordination entails would add extra pressure on not just me but on my family. So, despite my personal sense of vocation, the reality of my life says otherwise. It's not enough to want something.

Additionally, I've been inadvertently in a position of responsibility for a small group of practitioners now for the last 10-years. This is service in itself, and although they are self-directed for the most part I am still unable to serve in the fullest sense. Adding study and training as a Buddhist monk wouldn't help that.

I can think of other reasons, there are more reasons not to than reasons to ordain, but I won't go into that here. Perhaps in a few years I may apply, perhaps not. As I said, for now I'm simply grateful to have received the precepts and the Okesa.

Gassho
Sattlah
Myojin

[Koriki]

...why did you become a priest?

Here is my 2 cents worth as I will be ordaining quite soon. As to why... I don't entirely know. It wasn't really something I was aspiring to, it was more like I was walking along a particular path and I noticed that Zen priests happened to also be heading in a similar direction, so I became curious about that role. I've spent most of my life in the helping professions, so it feels natural to want to help others in an area that I have a great interest in. I see the priesthood here as something like Ango365 with its intensified study and practice, working on the front end of TreeLeaf to be of assistance to members, and also working on the backend of TreeLeaf to make sure things are running well. I also don't have a picture in my mind as to what I want my role to look like. Instead, I'm just going to let it unfold based on the conditions that arise. Many times in my life I have had a picture of what I thought a goal would look like when I got there only to find out it was quite different than I expected. So, this time I'm going to do my best to not have a picture in my head and just trust in the direction I'm heading towards.

Gassho,
Koriki
s@lah

[Mujin]

You would still be expected to engage in Training, practice and learning our traditions, to place yourself in a role of service primarily. One is now focused on others. We ask that the person already have shown their dedication to the Soto Zen path for about ten years or more. There is a year's wait for Ordination, as we eye the person's sincerity too. It is not easy. It cannot be about the applicant. Dharma Transmission aside, you would be a Novice Priest-in-Training with no authority to guide others for some years, apart from special circumstances.

I receive many inquiries. Most are not right for the role, for one reason or another. MoD is not simple to join.

Of course, if someone wants to apply, contact me and we can discuss it. There is, however, an application process and some hurdles to pass.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Thank you Teacher, I will continue to contemplate the idea and see where that leads me. Being of service means everything to me, so I appreciate the clarification here, it was actually comforting to me.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH