Why to be a nun/monk/priest?

[Shoshin]

Hi!

I'm really interested in knowing, if any of the priests want to share, why did you become a priest? Did it happen to be what you expected? Why do you remain a priest? And what are for you the differences between being a priest and a lay practitioner? What does priesthood allow you to do or give you that a dedicated lay practice didn't allow you or give you? What things can you offer to the world that you couldn't offer before priesthood? (The last question has obvious answers for all of us that are lucky to have the gift of your teachings and presence, but maybe there are other things that I cannot see at the moment)

Thanks

Gassho
Satlah

[Hokuu]

I'm not an addressee of the post, but I find my (and chatGTP's) reflection might be of some value. It's basically just one line:
"Jukai is a vow to walk the path; ordination is a vow to carry and preserve the path itself."

Gassho
satlah

[Bion]

You and I have had this conversation before, so I will withhold my answer here until you get some from others, since you already know my approach! I hope the answers you get are truly personal and they prove helpful to you!

Gassho
sat lah

[Shoshin]

I'm not an addressee of the post, but I find my (and chatGTP's) reflection might be of some value. It's basically just one line:
"Jukai is a vow to walk the path; ordination is a vow to carry and preserve the path itself."

Gassho
satlah

Thanks!. Yes. This is beautiful.

Oh my! Till now realise I didn't that your Dharma name Skywalker is, young Buddhist.
May the Dharma be with you!!

Gassho
Satlah

[Mujin]

I often think about the same. I look forward to the responses.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[Shoshin]

You and I have had this conversation before, so I will withhold my answer here until you get some from others, since you already know my approach! I hope the answers you get are truly personal and they prove helpful to you!

Gassho
sat lah

Yes
Our conversation took me to dare to ask the question to everyone happy to answer.

Thanks
Gassho
Satlah

[Kokuu]

Hi Shoshin

It is a good question and I look forward to reading the answers too!

I am not someone who has long felt called to the priesthood. If Jundo had said no to my request for ordination, I would have not been heartbroken but continued to practice and found another way to serve (nevertheless I am glad he didn't!). Similarly, when I ordained, it was in no way with a view to transmission. At that time no one at Treeleaf had received transmission so we had no idea of the kind of timeframe that might be involved or what was required so most of us didn't even think about it.

So, my ordination felt like a way to serve the sangha that had served me and, perhaps, my wider community, especially those with chronic illness, and that was pretty much it.

Priesthood in the Soto tradition involves upholding and carrying forward that tradition but that is also not the main thing I carry with me, although it is important. Rather it is the act of service and helping to free people from suffering, even if that is only for a moment. That is not exclusive to Zen even if I do it wearing a Zen robe. Others do it wearing the uniform of a nurse, the police or in ten thousand other capacities.

The only difference I see between myself and the lay members is my responsibility towards the sangha. Each one of us here is important and has a role to play. Each one of us serves here in our own way and as Rumi says "there are a thousand ways to kneel and kiss the ground." So I hope that priesthood does not set us apart as we are all walking the same path and none of us are more special than the other.

The essential thing for me is that being a priest gives more opportunity to serve, both in the sangha and outside. And being transmitted widens that ability further. I love the dharma and now I get to share it with others. Everything else is extra. Most people don't know I have this role and there is no need for them to. It is not something to be added to the ego or a sign of status. It is not a badge or a credential. Priesthood is not about me, but about other people, and all that I learn and practice here is done with the intent to serve.

Tl;dr priesthood = service

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Shujin]

Howdy - this is an interesting question, and something that our priests ask of themselves prior to ordination. It is also something we should continue to reflect upon. Kokuu made some excellent points in his response. My professional life has been in public service since I was young, and being a priest seems to be an extension of this. I find in some ways it's not what I expected, but when we serve others our expectations aren't a priority.

I can't think of something that I am allowed to do that I couldn't as a lay person. We take the same vows, sit the same zazen, and live in this world together. In some sanghas, I wouldn't be able to participate as a lay person in the liturgical side of things (as ino/doan), but there are others which allow this. If I am allowed to teach others in the future, I will be grateful, but I find that one's conduct leaves a more lasting impression than one's words.

This may not be everyone's experience, but for me being a priest is akin to marriage. Receiving jukai is closer to a long term dating relationship. I've committed myself to our teacher and this sangha. Short of a few extreme circumstances, I have taken a vow to remain in service to this place. This is why it's vital to sit with our group for a long period before ordination.

If this isn't helpful, feel free to disregard.

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[Seiga]

If I may be so bold as to say so: the responses so far have once again demonstrated the beauty of this place in a very special way.
Thank you very much.
Gasshō
Seiga

[Shui_Di]

Very nice responds from all the Sangha members.

Gassho Mujo,
Stlah

[Shoshin]

Thanks so much everyone for your answers and comments.

They help me to understand you and the priesthood path better

Gassho
Satlah

[Jundo]

I will just add that priesthood is actually a stepping down into a role of service to sentient beings. One is moving from being a passenger on the boat, to a member of the galley and engine room crew, caring nurse in the clinic, and such.

Priesthood is to make these beautiful and powerful teachings and practices available to others, and to learn our traditions to keep the flame burning into the future. It is a "calling," a matter of the heart, not some profession, hobby or chance for self-aggrandizement. I became a priest because this path saved my life, opened my heart and gave me sense of where "I" fit in this crazy reality. I felt deeply that it can do the same for others.

An interesting things about the terms use in the West ... priest, nun, monk. I have written about that here. There are better words to convey the meaning, I feel:

The words "monk" and "priest" do not really match as translations of the Japanese terms, and were picked, obviously, from the Judeo-Christian vocabulary of Western missionaries in the 19th century. However, they are not wrong either: "Priest" carries the feeling of working some power to intervene with a god or the spirits. "Monk" describes someone who lives, usually celibate, in a monastic setting. In fact, those names do fit rather well the roles of Japanese clergy at different times in their clerical "careers." Most Zen "monks" in Japan do reside in monasteries maintaining celibacy, but usually only for short periods as part of their early training. After they "graduate" from the monastery, most then do reside in temples in which they are largely concerned with performing funeral and other ceremonies for parishioners to appease the spirits of deceased ancestors, bring good fortune or the like. In such case, "priest" is not inaccurate to describe such folks.

... The actual Japanese terms for Zen clergy are different, however: One of the many Japanese terms usually (and awkwardly) translated as "monk/priest" in English is actually closer to "Sangha companion," a term which I care for very much ... "Souryo" ... (僧侶, with the first kanji derived from the "san" of Sanskrit sangha = community, and the second meaning "companion." It sounds close to "sew" a thread, and "Rio" in Brazil). I wish this term would become more common in the West. Thus, "Buddhist companion" or "Sangha Friend and Companion" may be the most accurate.

... A very nice old term for a Buddhist teacher used in China is "shanzhishi," in Japanese "Zenchiki" = a "good wise friend" (善知識, Sanskrit kalyanamitra.) I like that, and often say, "A Good Friend along the Way." That is a nice name.

More on this here:

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/the-beginner-s-place/12662-a-zen-glossary#post463506

Gassho, J
stlah

[Bion]

As I said initially, I wanted to wait before posting my own reply, to allow others a chance to post theirs. I still hope others will too. Shoshin and I had talked about this previous to her posting this question, so she knows my answer. As a matter of fact, the reply I will give here is copy-pasted from another private conversation with a sangha friend who asked me the very same thing.
This is not some standardized "from a Soto Zen" perspective answer, but how I approach my very life, so it should be taken as very personal, informed by my understanding and experience so far.

For me, Jukai is a commitment to act and practice as a lay bodhisattva, bound by the 16 bodhisattva precepts. It is one's commitment to spend a lifetime answering the question "Am I doing my best right now to live by these precepts of the Buddha?" and then correcting one's feet on the path, figuring out how to care for one's own practice and being an example for other beings.

Ordination, or home leaving, for me, personally means throwing oneself into the practice of the Way as a member of the Buddha's Sangha of monks. It is a renunciation of one's living to please oneself and a complete dedication to realizing the Buddha Way, to understanding it and transmitting it to others. Ordination, for me, means my inclusion in the sangha of home leavers from this and other traditions, and that comes with the responsibility of honoring this path and not tarnishing the image and reputation of The Blessed One's monks. As an ordained bodhisattva, I feel it is one's duty to be a model for lay bodhisattvas of how to practice diligently, and of course an example of embodying the dharma for all beings in all directions.

The ordination vow says we vow to part with human attachment, though living amid the muddy world. We leave home seeking the Enlightened Way, vowing to free all creations along the way. So, the aim is clear, and from then on, I believe one arranges life around practice, not practice around life, though really... life and practice should be one at all times. What that looks like is up to each of us to figure out, based on our own specific circumstances and understanding of the dharma and our vows.

That's a brief version of my own approach. Please, understand this is very personal, and others might say something totally different, and even Jundo might have a different outlook. Ultimately though, the one who takes vows and has to keep them is oneself.

Sorry for running too long here.

Gassho
sat lah

[Shui_Di]

Hi everyone. Very insightful discussion.

I am not a Priest, but I want to share my opinion.

When I read the book Living by Vow,
It mentioned about the 4 Bodhisattva vows.
So, becoming a priest, means we put the 4 Bodhisattva vows more seriously.

And also, becoming a Priest, means someone have a responsibility to be a continuation of the lineage. Bring the estafette of the torch of Dharma which is transmitted from Shakyamuni Buddha, to Bodhidharma, to Daikan Eno, to Sozan and Tozan Zenji, to Nyojo Zenji, to Dogen and Keizan Zenji, till to the priest him/herself.

So as a Priest, one must make sure that the torch from Shakyamuni Buddha benefiting others. The layman, he gets the light from someone who bring the torch. But becoming a priest, he is the one who bring the torch. Bringing the torch is not easy tough. (Really it is not. Prepare the muscle of your hand ).

So, first, As the torch bringer, one should make sure the flame is always flaming. No matter if there is someone come to the flame, it doesn't matter. Even Dogen Zenji sat alone for two years after back from China. Even Bodhidharma sat for 9 years before he met Eko. But Bodhidharma kept his torch flame always flaming. Just like what Bion said, as a Priest one should be an example for others. That's why diligently practice and keeping the precepts is so crucial. Especially the precepts. These days, Buddhism (in any traditions) face a lot of scandals. Fake Guru in Tibet who had scandals affair with students, monk in Thailand who for human trafficking, and sooo many things that can make non Buddhist people may distrust the Dharma of Shakyamuni Buddha. When people distrust Buddhism because of the scandal, it will make them avoid the real torch of Dharma. That's why keeping the flame bright by diligently practice is very important. Not for ourselve, but for all sentient beings.

Second, one should also learn and study not only to keep the flame, but how to deliver the flame. That's why priest also learn about some ceremonial things. And we know that Keizan Zenji was the most clever one in doing this. Not only that, I think one also need to learn about many things, like how to manage community, how to do public speaking. (The Christian Church in my country even send their priest to a public communication school to make them know how to preach), and also how to cook (if one has a Zendo, to serve others), how to be electric engineers to repair the monastery or Zendo problem. And also to do our best in our career, so we are enable to support the Dharma in many ways. Just like Jundo said, becoming Priest is stepping down, be in service for others.


Sorry for long response, since I am not an ordained priest, maybe I am not in my place to response about this matter. But, yet, this is my opinion.

Gassho, Mujo

[Washin]

Jukai is a vow to walk the path; ordination is a vow to carry and preserve the path itself.

... priesthood is actually a stepping down into a role of service to sentient beings. One is moving from being a passenger on the boat, to a member of the galley and engine room crew...

So well put all above. Thank you.
Serving the community and sharing the teachings while trying to help all sentient beings, for me, is the Priesthood.

Gassho
Washin
stlah