Why to be a nun/monk/priest?

[WhiteLotus]

Hi!

Greetings Shoshin!

Thank you so much for asking these questions, and thank you all for providing insight and answers to these questions.

My lack of knowledge on this subject is vast, and the answers supplied were very helpful to better understand what these things mean. I was raised in a Christian home, and very early on I realized that there was much suffering in the world. As long as there are those suffering, it didn't feel alright for me to pursue a life of wealth and pleasure. So I dedicated my life to helping others in any way I could. I served in a number of roles through Christian ministry on one hand, and on the other studied early childhood development, psychology, and sociology on my own. I was too young to go to university at the time, and was able to get the college books from the local library or used bookstores. Albeit a bit outdated.

Not too different from Jundo, I consider myself somewhat of a futurist, and I think our society is well overdue for an update. Treeleaf is very much "early adopters" in that regard and I am grateful to find such a place of compassion and service to the community. I still know relatively little about the priesthood, and this topic has given some beautiful insight into what it is about. But perhaps the most beautiful aspect about this sangha is that it has the fragrance of the ancients.

What I mean by that is a sense of community, something very much lacking in today's society. There is a sad irony in the fact that technology has enabled us to meet here on one hand, while such a large part of our society who uses the same devices as we do, are not finding those sorts of community connections. Instead, many suffer from social isolation as a byproduct of how our society currently functions. Jundo encourages a few simple principles such as SatLah, and other means which humanize the community experience here. So many of today's problems actually have these sorts of very simple solutions, and it is inspiring to find a community like this.

Sorry if this ran a bit long, but I do feel you all deserve the props for all you do here. I am still finding my footing here for now, but you've all contributed greatly here and I look forward to seeing these seeds grow!


Much love to you all,
Salem
satlah

[Koushi]

Such wonderful answers already...

For me, it's squarely and firmly rooted in a role of service and care—listening deeply, holding space for others, keeping palms open, and doing my best to be a beneficial presence to all, including this sangha, wherever I may be, in all facets of life. Work, home, Treeleaf, community. Everywhere.

This does not mean withdrawing from society, but actively engaging with it. “Graciously sharing yourself with the hundred grass tips in the busy marketplace.” as it's said. A large part of this includes learning, providing, and carrying on traditions, ceremonies, knowledge, etc.

Yet, since each of our paths are parallel but different, I find most of my priesthood involves making our teachings/zen accessible and relevant to people who might otherwise feel disconnected from traditional religious frameworks, beliefs, etc. Making sure my colleagues in corporate America have an ear, a voice, and compassionate hand when they need it. Listening to and helping strangers of all faiths. Being of service to all sentient beings.

Then I get to come home to Treeleaf and provide what I can, carry on traditions with our ceremonies, retreats, etc. It is less about a particular title or word, and more about a lifelong vow to authentically live, moment-by-moment, the truth of interconnectedness and compassion—embracing the complexity and messiness of life with openness and kindness. And helping others do the same.

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Hokuu]

Slightly unrelated question based on an analogy which I know might be misleading, but at the same time, it would facilitate my understanding.
In the catholic church, there are basically two types of religious life (it surely depends on a specific congregation, so I'm approximating it a bit):
- being a "brother" (i.e., not a priest but a monk or a religious brother)
- being a "priest" (with the first step of being a "brother" for some time)

As far as I understand, the approach we discussed so far was this "being a 'priest'" path: first, Unsui > Dharma transmission (optionally).

Finally, the question: Is there also a path of being a "brother" in Soto Zen, i.e., a monk who doesn't intend to become the "priest" at all?

Gassho
satlah

[Jundo]

Slightly unrelated question based on an analogy which I know might be misleading, but at the same time, it would facilitate my understanding.
In the catholic church, there are basically two types of religious life (it surely depends on a specific congregation, so I'm approximating it a bit):
- being a "brother" (i.e., not a priest but a monk or a religious brother)
- being a "priest" (with the first step of being a "brother" for some time)

As far as I understand, the approach we discussed so far was this "being a 'priest'" path: first, Unsui > Dharma transmission (optionally).

Finally, the question: Is there also a path of being a "brother" in Soto Zen, i.e., a monk who doesn't intend to become the "priest" at all?

Gassho
satlah

Yes, we are speaking about the "being a priest" path. However, Nishijima Roshi thought (rightly) that the hard borders between Lay and Ordained were and should soften in this modern world, and that Zen clergy should be more "out in the world," with work and family, more like Protestant "Ministers" than celibate Catholic "Priests" in Christianity. I wrote about this in his obituary, which I quote at length below.

As to "brother," yes, there have always been especially committed lay people who took the Precepts especially seriously, lived a more "monk-ish" life (at least during some days), and were especially dedicated to practice. We recognized something like that here a few years ago, with our "Ubasoku" ...

A Buddhist laymen. Those who have faith in Buddhism, revere and serve the three treasures of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, and observe the precepts that forbid killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and misusing intoxicants, yet who do not renounce secular or family ties. Upāsaka originally meant to serve or one who serves. Buddhist laywomen who, like upāsaka, acknowledge allegiance to the three treasures and observe the precepts are called upāsikā in Sanskrit.

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/treeleaf-community-topics-about-zen-practice/archive-of-older-threads/13808-ubasoku-%E5%84%AA%E5%A9%86%E5%A1%9E

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Eight Ways GUDO WAFU NISHIJIMA Will Help Change ZEN BUDDHISM

...

1 – STEPPING THROUGH THE TRADITIONAL FOURFOLD CATEGORIES OF PRIEST & LAY, MALE & FEMALE: Unlike most Buddhist clergy in Asia, Japanese priests typically marry and are not celibate. Some look at this as a great failing of Japanese Buddhism, a break from 25 centuries of tradition. In Japan and the West, even some Japanese lineage priests and lay teachers themselves are unsure of their own identity and legitimacy, and of their roles compared to each other. With great wisdom, Nishijima transcended all such questions and limiting categories. He advocated a way of stepping right through and beyond the whole matter, of finding living expressions where others saw restriction, and of preserving the tradition even as things change. While he was a champion of the celibate way (Nishijima Roshi, although married, turned to a celibate lifestyle for himself upon ordination), he never felt that celibacy was the only road for all priests. Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. In our lineage, we are not ashamed of nor try to hide our sexuality and worldly relationships, nor do we feel conflicted that we are “monks” with kids and mortgages. When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings. The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. It is just as, in the West, we have come to step beyond the hard divisions and discriminations between “male” and “female”, recognizing that each of us may embody all manner of qualities to varying degrees as the circumstances present, and that traditional “male” and “female” stereotypes are not so clear-cut as once held. So it is with the divisions of “Priest” and “Lay”.

2 – FINDING OUR PLACE OF PRACTICE AND TRAINING “OUT IN THE WORLD”: For thousands of years, it was nearly impossible to engage in dedicated Zen practice except in a monastic setting, to access fellow practitioners, teachers and teachings, to have the time and resources and economic means to pursue serious practice, except by abandoning one’s worldly life. By economic and practical necessity, a division of “Priest” and “Lay” was maintained because someone had to grow the food to place in the monks’ bowls, earn the wealth to build great temples, have children to keep the world going into the next generation. Although Mahayana figures like Vimalakirti stood for the principle that liberation is available to all, the practical situation was that only a householder with Vimalakirti’s wealth, leisure and resources might have a real chance to do so. Now, in modern societies with better distributions of wealth (compared to the past, although we still have a long way to go), ‘leisure’ time, literacy and education, media access and means of travel and communication across distances, many of the economic and practical barriers to practice and training have been removed. This is the age when we may begin to figuratively “knock down monastery walls”, to find that Buddha’s Truths may be practiced any place, without divisions of “inside” walls or “outside”. For some of us, the family kitchen, children’s nursery, office or factory where we work diligently and hard, the hospital bed, volunteer activity or town hall are all our “monastery” and place of training. We can come to recognize the “monastery” located in buildings made of wood and tile as in some ways an expedient means, although with their own power and beauty too. There are still times when each of us can benefit from periods of withdrawal and silence, be it a sesshin or ango, or the proverbial grass hut in distant hills. Yes, this Way still needs all manner of people, each pursuing the paths of practice suited to their needs and circumstances, be they temple priests catering to the needs of their parishioners, hermits isolated in caves, celibate monks in mountain monasteries, or “out in the world” types demonstrating that all can be found right in the city streets and busy highways of this modern world. Nishijima, a zen priest yet a working man, a husband and father most of his life, stood for a dropping of “inside” and “out”. He was someone that knew the value of times of retreat, but also the constant realization of these teachings in the home, workplace and soup kitchens.


https://web.archive.org/web/20160324...-zen-buddhism/

[Bion]

Yes, we are speaking about the "being a priest" path. However, Nishijima Roshi thought (rightly) that the hard borders between Lay and Ordained were and should soften in this modern world, and that Zen clergy should be more "out in the world," with work and family, more like Protestant "Ministers" than celibate Catholic "Priests" in Christianity. I wrote about this in his obituary, which I quote at length below.

As to "brother," yes, there have always been especially committed lay people who took the Precepts especially seriously, lived a more "monk-ish" life (at least during some days), and were especially dedicated to practice. We recognized something like that here a few years ago, with our "Ubasoku" ...

https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/treeleaf/treeleaf-community-topics-about-zen-practice/archive-of-older-threads/13808-ubasoku-%E5%84%AA%E5%A9%86%E5%A1%9E

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

I think he means unsui that do not aspire to Dharma Transmission and just ordain to keep practicing as monks, or priests, whatever the word. Someone that does not want to become a teacher… if I am not misunderstanding.

Gassho

[Jundo]

I think he means unsui that do not aspire to Dharma Transmission and just ordain to keep practicing as monks, or priests, whatever the word. Someone that does not want to become a teacher… if I am not misunderstanding.

Gassho

Oh yes. We have those at Treeleaf too, and it is quite traditional in Buddhism and Zen. In fact, perhaps only a small minority of monks in Asian monasteries received "Dharma Transmission" as full masters themselves, while most were in other roles in the temple (gardeners, cooks, general rank and file monks). In Japan, this changed as priesthood became primarily about qualification for managing a local, parish temple, typically inherited from father to son, so almost all priests would receive Dharma Transmission as qualification to do that. In the West, Dharma Transmission is typically NOT associated with inheriting a temple. Instead, most teachers look for successors who truly embody our ways, have understanding, ethical behavior, exhibit deep Wisdom and Compassion and will keep the flame of this Way burning into the next generation.

We have excellent priests at Treeleaf too who are not particularly focused on Dharma Transmission as any goal (it really should never be a goal anyway). Such priests are just out there, helping Sentient Beings.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Hokuu]

Thank you both Jundo and Bion; I got all the answers.

Gassho
satlah

[Onkai]

I ordained because Treeleaf and our practice are important to me and I wanted to increase my involvement in a helpful way and offer the practice to others. The training program also appealed to me, especially the reading syllabus.

When I ordained, I had a different vision of who I would be when and if I eventually received Transmission. I am now still focused on Treeleaf, rather than forming a related but different Sangha. I think besides my involvement with Treeleaf, I will express my understanding of the Way creatively through the fiction that I write.

Gassho Onkai
Sat lah

[Myo-jin]

Not a priest and not about to be but I did consider it for a while after jukai, so this is more my thoughts on why I decided not to pursue the priesthood.

At that point, I was full of enthusiasm, but it seemed to me that while I wanted to dive in to the dharma, I needed to do so for the right reasons. So rather than ‘should I ordain?’ I changed it around to ‘am I the kind of person who should ordain?’.

needless to say, aside from personal desire I could think of no good reason to do so, I could see no way my ordaining would benefit anybody, so I dropped the issue. Receiving the precepts and Okesa is more than I could have hoped for, that’s enough.

gassho
sattlah
Myojin

[Seiko]

Being a novice here, please take my comments with a pinch of salt and of course always pay more attention to senior and transmitted priests.

Why did you become a priest?

My wish for ordination began in 1978. Specifically, I was covered in mud, digging a vegetable patch in the rain, in the grounds of Chittaviveka, when a nun brought me a mug of tea. She held out the mug, I hesitated (a man is not allowed to receive anything directly from a Thai nun, she must set it down, for the man to pick up) but she said: "It's OK, I'm not going to put it down in the mud". That act of kindness was enormous and had a profound effect on me.

My understanding of the role of a monk developed over time and I grew to admire the monks/nuns/priests that I met - for their kindness. I thought that being around these people night someday help me to develop more compassion for others.

Did it happen to be what you expected?

I should not have been surprised, but I was surprised, at the amount of decision making, discussion and organising that priests do behind the scenes.

Why do you remain a priest?

I hope that I may be of help to someone.

what are for you the differences between being a priest and a lay practitioner?

A lay person promises to keep the precepts. In addition, as a priest, I feel responsible - as a custodian of our tradition.

What does priesthood allow you to do or give you that a dedicated lay practice didn't allow you or give you? What things can you offer to the world that you couldn't offer before priesthood?

I see priesthood as a way of serving/helping others.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[Shoshin]

I ordained because Treeleaf and our practice are important to me and I wanted to increase my involvement in a helpful way and offer the practice to others. The training program also appealed to me, especially the reading syllabus.

When I ordained, I had a different vision of who I would be when and if I eventually received Transmission. I am now still focused on Treeleaf, rather than forming a related but different Sangha. I think besides my involvement with Treeleaf, I will express my understanding of the Way creatively through the fiction that I write.

Gassho Onkai
Sat lah

Thanks for your answer.
I'm interested in exploring art in general as a means to study and to express the Way. So I'm very interested and curious about how you express your understanding of the Way through fiction.

Gassho
Satlah

[Furyu]

Thank you all for sharing your stories and thoughts, and gratitude towards those who have chosen to follow the path to priesthood and make this Treeleaf sangha what it is.

Fūryū

Sat/lah

[Onkai]

Thanks for your answer.
I'm interested in exploring art in general as a means to study and to express the Way. So I'm very interested and curious about how you express your understanding of the Way through fiction.

Gassho
Satlah

Thank you, Shoshin. So far, I haven't been consciously writing "Zen" literature, although I do express my values. I am thinking of writing stories inspired by Dōgen or koans, although in the end, the starting point may be unrecognizable. I have to be careful not to write "message" stories that are propaganda and not entertaining - to just write windows into how things are or could be.

Gassho Onkai
Sat lah

[FNJ]

Not a priest and not about to be but I did consider it for a while after jukai, so this is more my thoughts on why I decided not to pursue the priesthood.

At that point, I was full of enthusiasm, but it seemed to me that while I wanted to dive in to the dharma, I needed to do so for the right reasons. So rather than ‘should I ordain?’ I changed it around to ‘am I the kind of person who should ordain?’.

needless to say, aside from personal desire I could think of no good reason to do so, I could see no way my ordaining would benefit anybody, so I dropped the issue. Receiving the precepts and Okesa is more than I could have hoped for, that’s enough.

gassho
sattlah
Myojin

I'm just curious Myojin, based on what you say why in your picture do you wear full kesa? Perhaps in a different tradition?

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

[Jundo]

I'm just curious Myojin, based on what you say why in your picture do you wear full kesa? Perhaps in a different tradition?

Sat LAH
gassho
Niall

I can answer that!

In the Nyoho tradition of Kesa sewing within Soto Zen, lay or priest who have undertaken the Precepts can sew or wear full Kesa. However, both wear a special handsewn style called "Nyoho-e."

https://sanshin-source.weebly.com/sawaki-nyohoe-treasury.html

It is actually not so far from Chinese tradition, where lay folks who have taken Precepts wear a full Kesa, although it is slightly different style from the priests Kesa. Here is a picture of some lay folks receiving their version of the Kesa on the Continent after taking the 5 Precepts ...

image.pngimage.png

Gassho, J
stlah