Practice vs enlightenment-practice

[Houzan]

Hi Houzan,

Let me give my little opinion on this.

Maybe you do mean that Practice is kinda formal procedure, and practice-enlightement is the Zazen mind.

Actually, in my opinion, Practice is not only sit straight, bowing or etc. Sit Straight and bowing without "Zazen mind" is not practice.

And Practice-enlightement is not only about "Zazen mind", but also including Zazen speech and Zazen action, in any thing, like keeping the precept, doing daily life, helping others, and of course including bowing and sit straight.

We do practice not to get any result of it. It is because just the practice of Buddhas.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

Thank you, Mujo. Yes, exactly! I apparently needed to break up practice into two types to see that there is only one type (ref your comment as well Shinshi - and thank you ). And my "zazen mind" is also your "zazen speech" and "zazen action". But when you say "keeping the precepts" its so easy for my mind to put in effort and start judging my behavior. So I prefer to say "keeping the precepts with a zazen mind" to make this practice "right" and rather put in effortless effort. Its a bunch of wordplay, but I feel it makes a real difference to my practice.

Gassho, Hozan
Satlah

[Shui_Di]

Thank you, Mujo. Yes, exactly! I apparently needed to break up practice into two types to see that there is only one type. And my "zazen mind" is also your "zazen speech" and "zazen action". But when you say "keeping the precepts" its so easy for my mind to put in effort and start judging my behavior. So I prefer to say "keeping the precepts with a zazen mind" to make this practice "right" and rather put in effortless effort. Its a bunch of wordplay, but I feel it makes a real difference to my practice.

Gassho, Hozan
Satlah

Hi Hozan. Yes indeed. This is what I mean. "Keep the precept with "Zazen mind." "

But, then What is Zazen mind?
(The answer is in Zazen itself)

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Houzan]

Hi Hozan. Yes indeed. This is what I mean. "Keep the precept with "Zazen mind." "

But, then What is Zazen mind?
(The answer is in Zazen itself)

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

It's the dropping off of body and mind, the Dharma gate of joyful ease. It's thinking non-thinking! Not limited to sitting cross-legged, although I can't imagine a better way to get intimately familiar with this mind - a never ending process

Gassho, Hozan
Satlah

[Bion]

If I try to continuously check my practice against the noble eightfold path, or any other standard, my mind will make a huge effort and judge my practice (maybe its not so for others!). Thus it will be "wrong practice".

I think maybe we are talking from very different perspectives here, Houzan.
I think master Dogen had a very ample view of practice, with nothing lefts outside of it, but he insisted on diligence while engaging in that practice, and diligence requires effort, attention and evaluation. I think, however, that is fundamentally different from chasing expected results or clinging to judgments or leading oneself to be discouraged at the realization of our apparent inadequacy. It is not about a chase for perfection.

Almost at the end of his life, he wrote Hachi-dainingaku, where he lists the eight realizations, or truths, or awarenesses of a Great Human (en enlightened person). Basically it is, as far as I can tell, his fully formed opinion on how one realizing the Buddha Way practices. All 8 of these listed realizations are fantastic to study in detail to get a feel for the vastness of practice as master Dogen understood it and the mind required to engage in it. I am neither qualified, nor knowledgeable enough to be able to express it better than he did, so the best I can do is point you to that!

I also apologize to everyone for these long replies, which I hope confuse no one and do not misrepresent the Dharma in any way. I am not a teacher and should've probably limited my words

Gassho
sat lah

[Houzan]

I think maybe we are talking from very different perspectives here, Houzan.
I think master Dogen had a very ample view of practice, with nothing lefts outside of it, but he insisted on diligence while engaging in that practice, and diligence requires effort, attention and evaluation. I think, however, that is fundamentally different from chasing expected results or clinging to judgments or leading oneself to be discouraged at the realization of our apparent inadequacy. It is not about a chase for perfection.

Almost at the end of his life, he wrote Hachi-dainingaku, where he lists the eight realizations, or truths, or awarenesses of a Great Human (en enlightened person). Basically it is, as far as I can tell, his fully formed opinion on how one realizing the Buddha Way practices. All 8 of these listed realizations are fantastic to study in detail to get a feel for the vastness of practice as master Dogen understood it and the mind required to engage in it. I am neither qualified, nor knowledgeable enough to be able to express it better than he did, so the best I can do is point you to that!

I also apologize to everyone for these long replies, which I hope confuse no one and do not misrepresent the Dharma in any way. I am not a teacher and should've probably limited my words

Gassho
sat lah

Please, Bion, its me who drive these long replies and also post them. I'm the one to apologies to all. All the replies are very helpful to me. Thank you all. I feel the points I'm trying to make are so darn important, but so darn difficult not to make a mess of. Looking forward to reading Hachi-dainingaku! I'll sit now.

Gassho, Hozan
Satlah

[Jundo]

Swimming-Enlightenment & The Great Pool of Practice

"Practice-Enlightenment" is different from mere "practice" in this way ...

To explain, imagine a Great Pool ... not just an Olympic-size pool, but as vast as the cosmos, boundless, no edge in fact ...

But what is a pool without lively swimmers? This pool is just dead water without a swimmer. But what are swimmers without a pool? A swimmer is not a swimmer without the pool. There is no "swimming" without both water and swimmer (not to mention the ground below and the sky above.)

For a Buddha-Pool, however, the central point is that water, swimmer, swimming, ground and sky are not two, but are one great Swimming (Big S). There is only this Swimming. Really, there is not even some "Great Pool," or water or ground or sky ... only Swimming. In fact, each one liquid drop of water holds the whole pool within, as well as swimmer, ground and sky ... and each tiny drop is all Swimming (Swimming is held in each drop wide, great or tiny ... no drop hinders the Swimming.)

Usually, a swimmer feels like someone separate from the water, ground and sky. They feel that the water starts at the skin where the swimmer ends. The swimmer usually feels that s/he enters and exits the pool, just as we feel we enter and exit this life at birth and death. In fact, there is only Swimming, which has come from the timeless past, goes on to the timeless future, yet is realized in each stroke ... stroke stroke stroke. When the time comes to exit this pool, Swimming remains and continues on. Swimming goes on endlessly and, in fact, the swimmers were born from the water! We are just water flowing, both before birth and after death and each drop of time between. We do not enter the water to start swimming, but are the Swimming become swimmers. We are this Swimming and always have been.

There are other swimmers in this pool too, sharing it with you, and they are you too ... and you just them, all the water, all the Swimming. (In fact, for this pool, there is no inside or outside the pool ... so all your life, family, work, the whole world is in this pool. Nothing is outside. Life, family, work, world ... all Swimming.) The other swimmers are swimming in their own "Swimming-Times," and you are swimming in your "Swimming-Time" ... but really there is only timeless Swimming. Each stroke actually has no "before" or "after" the stroke ... just stoke stroke stroke which brings to life the whole pool.

Is the swimmer swimming through the pool (like we feel that we are just beings living through time in this world)? Or is the pool swimming across the swimmer? Yes, but in fact, there is only Swimming ... Swimming is Swimming across Swimming.

So, what is Swimming practice?

Now, some swimmers make a mess of it: They are swimming without elegance, swimming drunk or violent toward the other swimmers. They try to command big areas of pool, leaving small space for others or none at all. They create ripples, whirlpools and other hazards, drown themselves and cause others to drown. They feel separate from the other swimmers, from the water, from themselves. They can only think about getting to the goal at the end of the pool where, they think, the true winning and prize is. Although they are as much the water, the sky and ground, swimming and swimmers as all is ... they do not know. They know swimming, but not Swimming. They do not know how to swim and Swim, not two. They make a mess of it.

However, some swimmers swim with wisdom and elegance. Oh, in this life of swimming, we must keep moving forward, we cannot pause and just "float" for long! We do have places to go, work to do, a family to feed, so we swim for our livelihood. However, in truth, here is the water, there is the water, all is the water ... all is only Swimming. We move forward, but here is Swimming, there is Swimming, ALL is the Buddha pool, so truly there is no place to go, no place we come from. Unlike the violent and drunken swimmers, however, the Wise swimmer realizes so. To realize so, she swims sober, peacefully, without anger and violence.

The Precepts are our "Pool Guidelines" for good behavior ... like don't bring glass objects into the pool because somebody may get cut, don't dive onto others where they may get hurt, no yelling, don't molest the other swimmers, no running where somebody might slip, give others their space, etc. etc. Of course, we should not grasp at these standards, become obsessed (do not become obsessed about glass objects and the other people who run and splash, becoming the "Pool Police" ) ... but follow them easily. They are Wise, Compassionate and make sense! Even if we do not follow the Guidelines, it is still Swimming ... everything is Swimming ... but the pool becomes a violent and bloody mess. It is best to follow the guidelines for a good swimming experience, and to keep the pool clean!

Now ... to get to the point: Mere "practice" is just to swim to get somewhere, for exercise, feeling like a single swimmer who is "in" the pool, but not the pool. "Practice-Enlightenment" brings the Swimming to life, swimming with grace, poise, calm and peace! Swimming that is Swimming Swimming even as we swim from here to there.

There are other words we use sometimes to describe this Swimming too ...

In "sudden enlightenment," we suddenly realize that water, ground, sky, swimmers, swimming are wholly Swimming. In "gradual enlightenment" we get in the pool slowly, using the steps on a cold day, little by little getting wet. In both cases, we are equally wet. In fact, all is the Swimming and always has been. ... all just wet and Swimming, even if the person on the steps needs a little more time to realize so. Diving in is not better than the slow steps if one still makes a muddle of it after. Even before the steps, after the steps and the steps themselves are just Swimming.

Sad day is Swimming, happy day is Swimming, peace is Swimming, war and violence is Swimming, sickness is Swimming, health is Swimming, youth is Swimming, old age is Swimming ... all is Swimming. Best to avoid war and violence in the pool. Accept the rest.

To "clarify causation" means that our stokes leave ripples and make waves. It is best to swim gently, not make harmful waves, dangerous for ourself and for others (not two, by the way). Even so, the ripples and waves are always the water, the water is just the ripples and waves, never rising never falling. When we get out of the water someday, and the next or other swimmers enter, they are Swimming, we are Swimming, so our ripples and waves have effects.

One does not need to check that one's practice is correct each moment. One never is not Swimming. There is only Swimming. Even so, when one is swimming poorly, making a mess of thing, it is soon obvious. Please return to poise in swimming. Sometimes swim hard, with great intent. Sometimes swim with seriousness. Sometimes swim for fun, light hearted, not "trying," not a care in the world. Sometimes just float. Sometimes do silly things in the water. All is Swimming. If finding oneself making a mess of things, about to drown oneself or others (in greed, anger, jealousy and the rest) ... just relax, return to the surface and regain one's graceful strokes.

Aspiration is the wish to get in the pool and swim. Aspiration is only Swimming, water, sky and ground. Practice is swimming with grace and poise. Practice is only Swimming, water, sky and ground. Enlightenment is when one realizes that there is only Swimming. Nirvana is Swimming all along, before entering, exiting and all between. There is only Swimming, without a moment's gap.

Zazen is our time each day when we just float ... as if in a sensory deprivation tank ... to realize that water, ripples, ground, sky, swimmers and swimming are just Swimming. When we are pushing ahead, stroke stroke stroke, so busy, it is hard to realize sometimes. So, we float, with the hard borders of body and water dropping away. We can also realize this in action, stroke stroke stroke, where swimming, swimmer, strokes and breath are one beyond one ... but it is good to become still, just float for a time each day. Floating is Swimming, it is the Buddha Swimming, no place to go, nothing in need of doing ... JUST FLOAT!

This is Swimming-Enlightenment, Just Swimming, Practice-Swimming.

Also ... Frankly, we do not need the "traditional forms" to make this so. All the world is our "traditional forms." We do not need robes or altars, incense or bowing. However, for us Zen folks, it is a kind of swimming lesson. The robe is our bathing suit, the altar is our diving board, the incense is the moisture in the air, the bowing just a dive. We do so just to remind ourself about Swimming-Enlightenment. Master Dogen did not have a pool at Eiheiji, or I am sure that he would have written Shobogenzo-Continuous Swimming. He only spoke of incense and robes because he was a Buddhist coach not a swim coach. I do not care so much about our traditional forms but, alas, management gets upset if I go in the pool naked, without my swim trunks or wearing shoes and street clothes.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

PS - Hachi-dainingaku The Eight Ways of Great Swimmer ...

Swim with ...

Few desires (the water is everywhere, what over there that is not here?)

Know when enough is enough (don't overdo and get a cramp. Wait 30 minutes after eating.)

Swim with serenity

Swim with diligent effort (neither slack so one sinks, nor so tight that one is obsessive, don't block the lanes)

Swim mindfully (don't bump into others, watch for sharks in this pool.)

Knowing when to float (float Zazen each day)

Swim with Wisdom (you are not just "in" the water, one is the water and all the Swimming ... so realize so)

Speaking softly and do not bring phone and audio devices into the pool area.

[Kokuu]

PS - Hachi-dainingaku The Eight Ways of Great Swimmer ...

Swim with ...

Few desires (the water is everywhere, what over there that is not here?)

Know when enough is enough (don't overdo and get a cramp. Wait 30 minutes after eating.)

Swim with serenity

Swim with diligent effort (neither slack so one sinks, nor so tight that one is obsessive, don't block the lanes)

Swim mindfully (don't bump into others, watch for sharks in this pool.)

Knowing when to float (float Zazen each day)

Swim with Wisdom (you are not just "in" the water, one is the water and all the Swimming ... so realize so)

Speaking softly and do not bring phone and audio devices into the pool area.

There is a new book out on Hachi-Dainingaku which has been translated from the words of the (now passed) teacher Kosho Uchiyama. I have not yet acquired a copy but Uchiyama Roshi is a reliable voice in our tradition.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/213619892-the-roots-of-goodness

The fascicle itself can be read here: https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachi...Bainingaku.pdf
Or you can listen to me read it here: https://soundcloud.com/amclellan70/95-hachi-dainingaku

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Houzan]

Swimming-Enlightenment & The Great Pool of Practice

"Practice-Enlightenment" is different from mere "practice" in this way ...

To explain, imagine a Great Pool ... not just an Olympic-size pool, but as vast as the cosmos, boundless, no edge in fact ...

But what is a pool without lively swimmers? This pool is just dead water without a swimmer. But what are swimmers without a pool? A swimmer is not a swimmer without the pool. There is no "swimming" without both water and swimmer (not to mention the ground below and the sky above.)

For a Buddha-Pool, however, the central point is that water, swimmer, swimming, ground and sky are not two, but are one great Swimming (Big S). There is only this Swimming. Really, there is not even some "Great Pool," or water or ground or sky ... only Swimming. In fact, each one liquid drop of water holds the whole pool within, as well as swimmer, ground and sky ... and each tiny drop is all Swimming (Swimming is held in each drop wide, great or tiny ... no drop hinders the Swimming.) Usually, a swimmer feels like someone separate from the water, ground and sky. They feel that the water starts at the skin where the swimmer ends. The swimmer usually feels that s/he enters and exits the pool, just as we feel we enter and exit this life at birth and death. In fact, there is only Swimming, which has come from the timeless past, goes on to the timeless future, yet is realized in each stroke ... stroke stroke stroke. When the time comes to exit this pool, Swimming remains and continues on. Swimming goes on endlessly and, in fact, the swimmers were born from the water! We are just water flowing, both before birth and after death and each drop of time between. We do not enter the water to start swimming, but are the Swimming become swimmers. We are this Swimming and always have been.

There are other swimmers in this pool too, sharing it with you, and they are you too ... and you just them, all the water, all the Swimming. (In fact, for this pool, there is no inside or outside the pool ... so all your life, family, work, the whole world is in this pool. Nothing is outside. Life, family, work, world ... all Swimming.) The other swimmers are swimming in their own "Swimming-Times," and you are swimming in your "Swimming-Time" ... but really there is only timeless Swimming. Each stroke actually has no "before" or "after" the stroke ... just stoke stroke stroke which brings to life the whole pool.

Is the swimmer swimming through the pool (like we feel that we are just beings living through time in this world)? Or is the pool swimming across the swimmer? Yes, but in fact, there is only Swimming ... Swimming is Swimming across Swimming.

So, what is Swimming practice?

Now, some swimmers make a mess of it: They are swimming without elegance, swimming drunk or violent toward the other swimmers. They try to command big areas of pool, leaving small space for others or none at all. They create ripples, whirlpools and other hazards, drown themselves and cause others to drown. They feel separate from the other swimmers, from the water, from themselves. They can only think about getting to the goal at the end of the pool where, they think, the true winning and prize is. Although they are as much the water, the sky and ground, swimming and swimmers as all is ... they do not know. They know swimming, but not Swimming. They do not know how to swim and Swim, not two. They make a mess of it.

However, some swimmers swim with wisdom and elegance. Oh, in this life of swimming, we must keep moving forward, we cannot pause and just "float" for long! We do have places to go, work to do, a family to feed, so we swim for our livelihood. However, in truth, here is the water, there is the water, all is the water ... all is only Swimming. We move forward, but here is Swimming, there is Swimming, ALL is the Buddha pool, so truly there is no place to go, no place we come from. Unlike the violent and drunken swimmers, however, the Wise swimmer should realize so. To realize so, she swims sober, peacefully, without anger and violence.

The Precepts are our "Pool Guidelines" for good behavior ... like don't bring glass objects into the pool because somebody may get cut, don't dive onto others where they may get hurt, no yelling, don't molest the other swimmers, no running where somebody might slip, give others their space, etc. etc. Of course, we should not grasp at these standards, become obsessed (do not become obsessed about glass objects and the other people who run and splash, becoming the "Pool Police" ) ... but follow them easily. They are Wise, Compassionate and make sense! Even if we do not follow the Guidelines, it is still Swimming ... everything is Swimming ... but the pool becomes a violent and bloody mess. It is best to follow the guidelines for a good swimming experience, and to keep the pool clean!

Now ... to get to the point: Mere "practice" is just to swim to get somewhere, for exercise, feeling like a single swimmer who is "in" the pool, but not the pool. "Practice-Enlightenment" brings the Swimming to life, swimming with grace, poise, calm and peace! Swimming that is Swimming Swimming even as we swim from here to there.

There are other words we use sometimes to describe this Swimming too ...

In "sudden enlightenment," we suddenly realize that water, ground, sky, swimmers, swimming are wholly Swimming. In "gradual enlightenment" we get in the pool slowly, using the steps on a cold day, little by little getting wet. In both cases, we are equally wet. In fact, all is the Swimming and always has been. ... all just wet and Swimming, even if the person on the steps needs a little more time to realize so. Diving in is not better than the slow steps if one still makes a muddle of it after. Even before the steps, after the steps and the steps themselves are just Swimming.

Sad day is Swimming, happy day is Swimming, peace is Swimming, war and violence is Swimming, sickness is Swimming, health is Swimming, youth is Swimming, old age is Swimming ... all is Swimming. Best to avoid war and violence in the pool. Accept the rest.

To "clarify causation" means that our stokes leave ripples and make waves. It is best to swim gently, not make harmful waves, dangerous for ourself and for others (not two, by the way). Even so, the ripples and waves are always the water, the water is just the ripples and waves, never rising never falling. When we get out of the water someday, and the next or other swimmers enter, they are Swimming, we are Swimming, so our ripples and waves have effects.

One does not need to check that one's practice is correct each moment. One never is not Swimming. There is only Swimming. Even so, when one is swimming poorly, making a mess of thing, it is soon obvious. Please return to poise in swimming. Sometimes swim hard, with great intent. Sometimes swim with seriousness. Sometimes swim for fun, light hearted, not "trying," not a care in the world. Sometimes just float. Sometimes do silly things in the water. All is Swimming. If finding oneself making a mess of things, about to drown oneself or others (in greed, anger, jealousy and the rest) ... just relax, return to the surface and regain one's graceful strokes.

Aspiration is the wish to get in the pool and swim. Aspiration is only Swimming, water, sky and ground. Practice is swimming with grace and poise. Practice is only Swimming, water, sky and ground. Enlightenment is when one realizes that there is only Swimming. Nirvana is Swimming all along, before entering, exiting and all between. There is only Swimming, without a moment's gap.

Zazen is our time each day when we just float ... as if in a sensory deprivation tank ... to realize that water, ripples, ground, sky, swimmers and swimming are just Swimming. When we are pushing ahead, stroke stroke stroke, so busy, it is hard to realize sometimes. So, we float, with the hard borders of body and water dropping away. We can also realize this in action, stroke stroke stroke, where swimming, swimmer, strokes and breath are one beyond one ... but it is good to become still, just float for a time each day. Floating is Swimming, it is the Buddha Swimming, no place to go, nothing in need of doing ... JUST FLOAT!

This is Swimming-Enlightenment, Just Swimming, Practice-Swimming.

Also ... Frankly, we do not need the "traditional forms" to make this so. All the world is our "traditional forms." We do not need robes or altars, incense or bowing. However, for us Zen folks, it is a kind of swimming lesson. The robe is our bathing suit, the altar is our diving board, the incense is the moisture in the air, the bowing just a dive. We do so just to remind ourself about Swimming-Enlightenment. Master Dogen did not have a pool at Eiheiji, or I am sure that he would have written Shobogenzo-Continuous Swimming. He only spoke of incense and robes because he was a Buddhist coach not a swim coach. I do not care so much about our traditional forms but, alas, management gets upset if I go in the pool naked, without my swim trunks or wearing shoes and street clothes.

Gassho, J
stlah

Thank you, Jundo. What a crescendo!! So to check if I get this right:

As a swimmer in the pool, swimming, trying to get somewhere, there is the pool, the water, the boy standing awkwardly still, the naked zen master, and the yelling manager. This is “mere swimming”.

Yet the water is the pee is the elegant swimming is the running zen master is the chasing manager. It’s all a big pool. Thus there was swimming all along and still is. There was never a choice to swim or not.

Again there is the pool, the water, the boy now relieved, the distant giggles of the bare-butted zen master, and the face-planted manager. Same yet immensely different. This is swimming-enlightenment.

When Dogen uses the phrase “practice-enlightenment” he is reminding us not to believe that swimming is swimming, but that there is “mere swimming” and “Swimming” (where the former is the latter and latter the former - but only when seen clearly). That is also why we would say effortless effort, a chaseless chase, attentionless presence and non-judgemental discernment. These added «less’es» are means to not fall into the trap, to understand that a hairbreadth’s difference is like heaven and earth, just like «practice-enlightenment» is a useful way to say «practice». To understand that the effort, chasing, attention, judging and practice can, if not careful, all be rightly-wrong (and not rightly-right).

There is only one type of practice, but by talking about two types, this becomes more clear to me.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Houzan]

There is a new book out on Hachi-Dainingaku which has been translated from the words of the (now passed) teacher Kosho Uchiyama. I have not yet acquired a copy but Uchiyama Roshi is a reliable voice in our tradition.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/213619892-the-roots-of-goodness

The fascicle itself can be read here: https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachi...Bainingaku.pdf
Or you can listen to me read it here: https://soundcloud.com/amclellan70/95-hachi-dainingaku

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I read the fascicle yesterday and felt that it’s the least Dogen-esque fascicle of the whole Shobogenzo. Like he at the end said: well, if you didn’t catch what I have been teaching, then at least get this. Was it written for lay followers maybe? I missed his funky commentary on this one…

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Bion]

I read the fascicle yesterday and felt that it’s the least Dogen-esque fascicle of the whole Shobogenzo. Like he at the end said: well, if you didn’t catch what I have been teaching, then at least get this. Was it written for lay followers maybe? I missed his funky commentary on this one…

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

That was the point.
He was rewriting the entirety of Shobogenzo and he was quoting sutras extensively, while limiting his own commentaries. Ejo, his disciple says ¨Thinking about it, it was my teacher’s intention to rewrite all his writings and compile a one hundred–fascicle Japanese version of Shōbōgenzō. He began to put together new material, and this fascicle (Hachi Dainin Gaku) was the twelfth one. After that, his physical condition worsened, and he was unable to finish. So this fascicle constitutes his final teaching.¨
His conclusion is at the end there that folks should know and practice those qualities the Buddha was teaching the monks. ¨ Therefore, anyone who does not know and practice these qualities is not a disciple of the Buddha. This is the Tathāgata’s wisdom of the realization of having destroyed all cravings and delusions. Despite that, many today know nothing of these qualities. ¨

The timeline of Dogen Zenji´s life, is interesting, and suggests there was quite a shift in his writing, especially after receiving a new buddhist canon from Hatano in 1250. Two years after that he stoped lecturing and activities, and the next year, in 1253, he wrote the 12 fascicles, including this one, and the topics and sources for quotations were different, acoording to Steven Heine, touching on themes such as karma, causality, good and bad actions, repentance, miracles, retribution etc Not necessarily a shift in ideology, which is proposed by various theories, but rather a re-wording of things, as Heine suggests in a different paper comparing the two opposing views regarding master Dogen's difference in style between the early period and his Eiheiji period.

Gassho
sat lah

[Kokuu]

I read the fascicle yesterday and felt that it’s the least Dogen-esque fascicle of the whole Shobogenzo. Like he at the end said: well, if you didn’t catch what I have been teaching, then at least get this. Was it written for lay followers maybe? I missed his funky commentary on this one…

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

That is a good observation, Hōzan, and I think there are two things at play here:

1. Dogen wrote a number of fascicles that seem to me to be more introductory in terms of Buddhism and these were collected into the twelve fascicle Shobogenzo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%...scicle_version). Hachi-Dainingaku was one of these. My guess is that this would be given to novice monks as a primer.

2. In the Nishijima/Cross translation, after the fascicle itself, there is a note from Ejo saying that this was the final fascicle written by Dogen before his death and it was in its first draft. So, it may be that this was just a first version with the basics and he intended to add more in the way of commentary later. Ejo said that Dogen intended to rewrite the whole Shobogenzo and include new drafts so as to bring the total number of fascicles up to one hundred. Sadly, because of his death, he never got to fulfil his wish.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Houzan]

That was the point.
He was rewriting the entirety of Shobogenzo and he was quoting sutras extensively, while limiting his own commentaries. Ejo, his disciple says ¨Thinking about it, it was my teacher’s intention to rewrite all his writings and compile a one hundred–fascicle Japanese version of Shōbōgenzō. He began to put together new material, and this fascicle (Hachi Dainin Gaku) was the twelfth one. After that, his physical condition worsened, and he was unable to finish. So this fascicle constitutes his final teaching.¨
His conclusion is at the end there that folks should know and practice those qualities the Buddha was teaching the monks. ¨ Therefore, anyone who does not know and practice these qualities is not a disciple of the Buddha. This is the Tathāgata’s wisdom of the realization of having destroyed all cravings and delusions. Despite that, many today know nothing of these qualities. ¨

The timeline of Dogen Zenji´s life, is interesting, and suggests there was quite a shift in his outlook, especially after receiving a new buddhist canon from Hatano in 1250. Two years after that he stoped lecturing and activities, and the next year, in 1253, he wrote the 12 fascicles, including this one, and the topics and sources for quotations were different, acoording to Steven Heine, touching on themes such as karma, causality, good and bad actions, repentance, miracles, retribution etc

Gassho
sat lah

Ahh. Remember something like that from Heine’s book. He started to “Keizan-ize” his style a bit then in his later years to make it all more available for the average Joes on the streets?

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Bion]

Ahh. Remember something like that from Heine’s book. He started to “Keizan-ize” his style a bit then in his later years to make it all more available for the average Joes on the streets?

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

I am not a Dogen Zenji expert, nor particularly knowledgeable, but I would definitely not use that wording. I see nothing loose in master Dogen's rewriting, nothing meant at making anything more ¨palatable¨. I assume by Keizan-ize you mean making it more interesting for lay people, but I see none of that. If anything, I think it is natural that as he grew older, as his practice matured more and more, as he was building his monastic community and managing it, for his understanding of practice to have matured also and that is reflected in his continuous rewriting. Everything was always in ¨draft¨ stage... I wonder had he lived another 20 years, how long the Shingi would've been, for example, and what the Shobogenzo would've looked like.
Meanwhile, as Ejo says... this is his final teaching, to be cherished.

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

Thank you, Jundo. What a crescendo!! So to check if I get this right:

As a swimmer in the pool, swimming, trying to get somewhere, there is the pool, the water, the boy standing awkwardly still, the naked zen master, and the yelling manager. This is “mere swimming”.

Yet the water is the pee is the elegant swimming is the running zen master is the chasing manager. It’s all a big pool. Thus there was swimming all along and still is. There was never a choice to swim or not.

Again there is the pool, the water, the boy now relieved, the distant giggles of the bare-butted zen master, and the face-planted manager. Same yet immensely different. This is swimming-enlightenment.

When Dogen uses the phrase “practice-enlightenment” he is reminding us not to believe that swimming is swimming, but that there is “mere swimming” and “Swimming” where the former is the latter and latter the former - but only when seen clearly. That is also why we would say effortless effort, a chaseless chase, attentionless presence and non-judgemental discernment. These are means to not fall into the trap, to understand that a hairbreadth’s difference is like heaven and earth. To understand that the effort, chasing, attention, judging and practice can all be rightly-wrong and not rightly-right.

There is only one type of practice, but by talking about two types, this becomes more clear to me.

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

Hah. I guess I took my analogy and "swam" without a bit far. Honestly, I am not sure what you just wrote.

I guess it comes down to practicing to get something, and Practicing to bring the Buddha alive in one's practice. One practices to do, to benefit, to reach. One Pratice-Enlightenment practices to bring the qualities of a Buddha to life ... caring, equanimity, non-violence and the like good Buddhist qualities.

In a nutshell, I would say that.

Gassho, J
stlah