Practice vs enlightenment-practice

[Houzan]

Honestly, I am not sure what you just wrote.

I was so certain…
Thank you though, for checking

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Shui_Di]

I always liked Bodhidharma's One-Mind precepts: that right behaviors arises naturally from realizing emptiness. This is in line with what Rujing said. The essence is not forms, but the zazen mind (on AND off the cushion). With zazen mind, all forms become "right" and right behaviors arises naturally.

Gassho, Hozan
Satlah

Hi Hozan,

You are right. With Zazen mind right behavior will naturally arise. But to understand the Zazen mind, it can't be understood by intellectual thinking, eventhou of course we still learn, study the scripture l, but to really get the point, we should put it into actual action. This is why Dogen Zenji taught us to put effort in doing the practice like Zazen. It is not we practice Zazen to achieve enlightenment, but rather be with the enlightened nature, practice the enlightenment.

But yes in doing Zazen, we also have to correct our posture. Sit straight as comfortable as possible. Not too tense, not to lack. Be balance with our posture. Eventhough Zazen is dropping the body and mind but yet, there is something we should do to make our posture "correct" in moderation. There is "procedure" how to sit Zazen. Because if you sit in an uncomfortable way, it can't sit long, your body will be in pain, and at the end it is difficult for you to drop your body and mind.

Now it is the same with "Zazen-action". Yes, we also drop the body and mind. Act with "Zazen-mind". But, yet there is also a procedure how to "Zazen-act". Same like when we sit, we have procedures about how to sit, where to sit. It is not because it is wrong sitting beside a traffic, but it is more comfortable to sit in a Zendo.
For "Zazen-Act" we have procedures called Precepts. It is not about judging if our action is right or wrong, but rather if we live by precepts we can live more comfortably. By not doing harm to others, being kind to our neighbors, not killing not stealing etc, by doing this procedure, we can have more comfortable life, which will support our practice to understand the "Zazen-mind" and easier for us to do "Zazen-act". But of course, keeping precepts is not like nation law, where you will get punished if you don't follow it. It is just simply a guide to live comfortably in our daily life. So, practicing precept should be in moderation too. Just like when we sit. Not too tense not too lack, sit comfortably, same with precepts too. By keeping the precepts, the natural good action will follow.

So, yes we should put some effort to keep the precepts, until then we can practice the precepts effortlessly.

Gassho, Mujo

[Jundo]

Some very interesting discussion.

Originally posted by Houzan
I always liked Bodhidharma's One-Mind precepts: that right behaviors arises naturally from realizing emptiness. This is in line with what Rujing said. The essence is not forms, but the zazen mind (on AND off the cushion). With zazen mind, all forms become "right" and right behaviors arises naturally.

I think this is very idealistic. Realizing "emptiness" has not automatically resulted in "right behavior" through the years, including by several wayward teachers. Zazen mind does not mean that "right behaviors arise naturally," and Zazen mind can instead result in a kind of amorality "beyond good or bad" if one is not careful. It is such beliefs that led some Buddhists to kill during WWII on the belief that "life and death ultimately do not exist."

I am not a Dogen Zenji expert, nor particularly knowledgeable, but I would definitely not use that wording. I see nothing loose in master Dogen's rewriting, nothing meant at making anything more ¨palatable¨. I assume by Keizan-ize you mean making it more interesting for lay people, but I see none of that. If anything, I think it is natural that as he grew older, as his practice matured more and more, as he was building his monastic community and managing it, for his understanding of practice to have matured also and that is reflected in his continuous rewriting. ...

... Not necessarily a shift in ideology, which is proposed by various theories, but rather a re-wording of things, as Heine suggests in a different paper comparing the two opposing views regarding master Dogen's difference in style between the early period and his Eiheiji period.

I agree very much. If anything, in his later years, Dogen and his community had been pushed out of the capital, Kyoto, and sent to the snowy boondocks of Echizen. His later years, and his later talks, seem largely aimed at his monks not lay folks, and he could not offer teachings for non-monks as much from the isolated monastery. There may be some exceptions in talks which included his sponsor, Lord Hatano, and his retinue. Also, Dogen may have spoken more about Karma in his later years, maybe as his health failed. However, there was no particular effort by Dogen to "popularize" or make the teachings more interesting for lay people. He did tend to write and rewrite, but any author does that, but not to add a lay focus.

Practice-enlightenment (shushō ittō) means just that practice and realization, or the fulfillment of the practice are one, inseparable. Whether it is on the cushion, or off the cushion, enlightenment is in the doing, in the actualizing, not separate from it. Zazen, forms, rituals, cooking, chopping wood, carrying water, acting compassionately in accordance with the precepts, they are all practice-enlightenment when we awaken to the reality of that and approach them with that same mind. What good would enlightenment be for if it were not expressed in mundane activities, where our lives unfold? Practice-enlightenment is not limited to the cushion and the standing still... Practicing the Dharma is actualizing Enlightenment instantaneously within the entirety of our lives.

Yes. I just remind folks that such attitude does not have to be about "Buddhist" things like wearing robes, lighting incense, chanting. It can be, but it need not be. Those activities are special for us, as they help us remember and embody these teachings and practices. Even though Master Dogen said " We don’t use incense burning, making prostrations, nembutsu (reciting the Buddha’s name), the practice of repentance, or reading sutras. We only engage in just sitting” nonetheless, there is clear evidence that Dogen did practice all those things. The meaning is that when sitting there is only sitting, and we should not be attached to the our practices even when we sincerely undertake other practices. However, the same attitude can be brought to life in all of daily life ... in the office, cutting the grass, washing the dishes, doing the laundry, taking care of the baby, etc. etc.

I repeat that "practice-enlightenment" is different from simple "practice" because the former brings the Buddha to life in the doing, while the latter seeks Buddha. The former realizes that we are the whole world practicing with our body, and that when we embody the wisdom and compassion of Buddha, Buddha is alive in that moment.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Houzan]

You are right. With Zazen mind right behavior will naturally arise. But to understand the Zazen mind, it can't be understood by intellectual thinking, eventhou of course we still learn, study the scripture l, but to really get the point, we should put it into actual action. This is why Dogen Zenji taught us to put effort in doing the practice like Zazen. It is not we practice Zazen to achieve enlightenment, but rather be with the enlightened nature, practice the enlightenment.

Fully agree, and very down to earth and nicely put

But yes in doing Zazen, we also have to correct our posture. Sit straight as comfortable as possible. Not too tense, not to lack. Be balance with our posture. Eventhough Zazen is dropping the body and mind but yet, there is something we should do to make our posture "correct" in moderation. There is "procedure" how to sit Zazen. Because if you sit in an uncomfortable way, it can't sit long, your body will be in pain, and at the end it is difficult for you to drop your body and mind.

I believe and feel the traditional procedures or forms are absolutely helpful, but whether they are required I’m not sure. Even the Buddha did zazen lying down.

For "Zazen-Act" we have procedures called Precepts.

Hmm, I see it this way: the precepts will help us live comfortable lives and that makes practice easier, yes agree. But we can follow the precepts in a hollow sense and we can follow the precepts while fully embodying them (acting them out with zazen mind).

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

[Shui_Di]

Hmm, I see it this way: the precepts will help us live comfortable lives and that makes practice easier, yes agree. But we can follow the precepts in a hollow sense and we can follow the precepts while fully embodying them (acting them out with zazen mind).

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

Hi Hozan,

Yes sure, I agree with you. _/|\_

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Houzan]

I think this is very idealistic. Realizing "emptiness" has not automatically resulted in "right behavior" through the years, including by several wayward teachers. Zazen mind does not mean that "right behaviors arise naturally," and Zazen mind can instead result in a kind of amorality "beyond good or bad" if one is not careful. It is such beliefs that led some Buddhists to kill during WWII on the belief that "life and death ultimately do not exist."

Thank you for noticing. I wouldn’t leave right behavior to emptiness. Any person in society, independently of whether they are Buddhist or not, should strive for core human decency and ethical behaviors I think. I interpret the one mind precepts as saying that all behaviors are right when seen from emptiness (as there is no wrong or right). Yet in real life…

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Jundo]

... I interpret the one mind precepts as saying that all behaviors are right when seen from emptiness (as there is no wrong or right). Yet in real life…

That is exactly right. Most schools of Mahayana Buddhism, including Zen, speak of the "Two" or "Three Truths." And it is vital to remember and embody this. There is the Truth of Emptiness, beyond small human ideas of "good and bad" or "right and wrong." That does reveal a great Good and Right (Big G & R), but it is a kind of transcendental Wholeness free of small human events because free of division, conflict, me you and the other guy, this vs. that, war and peace, even killing and death. It is a great Peace (Big P) that holds all the sharp and round broken and bloody smashed pieces of this world. (It is what I called Swimming with Big S). This is the "Viewless View" embodied by the Bodhidharma Precepts which CANNOT BE BROKEN ... but only in absolute sense.

However, it is DANGEROUS to get lost there. As the Sandokai (Identity of Relative and Absolute) cautions, "To be attached to things is primordial illusion; [BUT]To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment." It can become the place where we can kill because "there is no death in absolute terms, no killer and no killed" even as I pick up a gun and shoot you.

So, there is basic ethics of "right and wrong" in this daily world (Samsara) where there is me and you, living and dying, war and peace, stealing and things to be stolen, killers and killing. That is embodied by the Bodhisattva Precepts which tells us most clearly that there are actions which are right and actions which are wrong ... with things not to steal, sentient beings not to kill as best we can. To live by such Precepts is "swimming" (small s), "practice" (small p). We try as best we can to stay afloat, not drown ourself, not drown others.

Both are True simultaneously to Mahayana Buddhists.

Thus, we also speak of a Third Truth where both of the above at TRUE AT ONCE, like "two sides of a no sided coin." Samsara is Nirvana, Nirvana just Samsara. That means that the enlightenment Zen person, living in "ongoing Practice-Enlightenment" must somehow unite the above in Wisdom and Compassion, e.g., "there is no death and nobody to kill ... HOWEVER, YES THERE ARE TOO, so do not kill them," and likewise "nothing to steal ultimately, but yet there is ... so do not steal," etc. etc.

To embody this Third Truth in our daily actions, bringing it alive to life, is "Practice-Enlightenment."

Gassho, J
stlah

[Jundo]

Originally posted by Houzan
... I interpret the one mind precepts as saying that all behaviors are right when seen from emptiness (as there is no wrong or right). Yet in real life…

That is exactly right. Most schools of Mahayana Buddhism, including Zen, speak of the "Two" or "Three Truths." And it is vital to remember and embody this. There is the Truth of Emptiness, beyond small human ideas of "good and bad" or "right and wrong." That does reveal a great Good and Right (Big G & R), but it is a kind of transcendental Wholeness free of small human events because free of division, conflict, me you and the other guy, this vs. that, war and peace, even killing and death. It is a great Peace (Big P) that holds all the sharp and round broken and bloody smashed pieces of this world. (It is what I called Swimming with Big S). This is the "Viewless View" embodied by the Bodhidharma Precepts which CANNOT BE BROKEN ... but only in absolute sense.

I want to be clear: When I said that there is a great Right and Good in the absolute, that does not mean that all worldly behaviors are thus "right" in ordinary meaning. It is a transcendental Right and Good. It does not mean that murdering, pillaging and stealing are thus somehow "right" in the absolute. It is more like saying that, in the absolute perspective, there is such Wholeness, that there is no murdering, pillaging and stealing possible whatsoever in Wholeness, thus there is only a kind of Peace, Good, Right. HOWEVER, there is still murdering, pillaging and stealing in the world, and they are wrong. Since the world is also the absolute in worldly guise, they are wrong in the absolute too.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Onki]

Bion has already done a great job of teaching on this topic. In my naive way I see it like this. Once you start talking about practice vs practice-enlightement you have wondered a bit off track. You are already discriminating. To me their is just practice. It is complete and whole in and of itself. Once you start to evaluate your practice you have stepped off the path.

There is just practice. Practice is the way. You can't improve practice, you can't do it right. There is only practice as you can right here right now.

Probably not helpful but that is how I see it today.

Gassho,

Shinshi

Beautiful.

Gasshō,

On

[Furyu]

Fūryū
Sat and lah

[Seiko]

Hi all,

Few days back I commented on a post where I played around with an analogy (swimming pool), an exercise that gave me a new perspective on practice-enlightenment. Im not fully sure whether this perspective makes fully sense though, so I ask for your help. It seems a bit extreme, but maybe it needs to be. I can’t see where I’m wrong, yet…

We have practice and we have enlightenment-practice (the old switcharoo to make the point more clearly get through). What is the difference?

In practice we observe the traditional forms. This goes from bowing to lending a hand. It may look like practice but it really is not. It is the ego trying to get enlightened, to feel good.

Then there is enlightenment-practice. You let your zazen mind (last couple of days I like to think of it as the “the wind tunnel mind” where the air can flow through freely without obstructions) bleed from pillow to play. It is not limited by traditional forms, although we may execute these as we need to take some forms. Why not these? Why not honor the tradition? They are a beautiful art form. But the essence of enlightenment-practice is not forms. It is the zazen mind. Thus you can sit while lying down. You can bow to a stone, dance to the air, cook dinner and even watch a movie. As long as you enlightenment-practice. This requires constant effort, but not the effort of practice, but the effortless effort of enlightenment-practice.

We therefore have a wrong way to practice and a right way to practice. Helping someone (a form) is great and always have tremendous value, but not necessarily “real practice”. For it to be “real practice”, the help must be delivered with a wind tunnel mind. We act responsively and compassionately to what blows through when needed.

The term “sudden enlightenment” I can now see referring to the split second of difference between practice and practice-enlightenment. “A hair’s breadth deviation, and heaven and earth are set apart.”

It feels correct but I might be missing it completely. Your guidance is most welcome.

Gassho, Hōzan
Satlah

Please take a punch of salt with my comments, as I am just a novice - a trainee priest - and my thoughts are just that.

I don't think much about enlightenment. Don't worry about it. Our practice is to sit in shikantaza, to keep the precepts, to know there is no separation between self and other. For me, this is life, trying to make the right decisions, trying to take the right action, speak the right words. The reward is in every minute. Doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Not chasing enlightenment.

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah