White Lotus AMA

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  • WhiteLotus
    Member
    • Apr 2025
    • 13

    White Lotus AMA

    Greetings friends!
    I gave a brief introduction about my background, you can find here. I am still getting familiar with all the great content each of you have offered this community, and it seems I have much to learn about this culture. The reason I am posting this topic in the Zen Practice section is that this is my only Zen practice.

    When I was 4 my mother asked my older brother what his earliest memory was. She couldn't recall being his age, and he couldn't recall being mine. This inspired me to remember, though at the time I had no words to describe it. Over the years I collected words to describe it, but they always failed to articulate it fairly. At best there is pointing, as such I composed this poem and offer it to the community:

    White lotus
    Weaving spider can't enter here.
    Nothing's said so you can hear.
    Weaving spider can't enter here.
    Return to you with all your fear.

    On the pond of clear reflection.
    Beyond the void without detection.
    Sits a flower of pure perfection.
    Blossoms found every direction.

    In the mirror made of mind.
    There's no forward or behind.
    The only peace there you'll find.
    Is it's all made of pure mind.

    On the mirror of bright reflection.
    There's nothing more than connection.
    Nothing to gain in any direction.
    Nothing to lose is pure perfection.

    In the mirror made of mind.
    There's no forward or behind.
    The only peace there you'll find.
    Is it's all made of pure mind.

    I have studied the Zen record for a number of years now. Much of that study is about observing how various masters would meet their students where they were at in life. The causes and conditions that brought the student to the master in the first place. Then utilizing an assortment of expedient means or turning phrases to encourage the student to turn the light of their awareness around, and observe the mind.

    One stark contrast between the Chinese Zen record and what I have observed so far about Soto Zen, is that the Chinese masters utilized no fixed form, and Soto Zen utilizes fixed form. I do not find this to be a contradiction however, as no fixed form does not exclude fixed forms. Based on my limited knowledge about Soto history, there are some honest facts to consider about Dogen's Zen school. One important observation is that Dogen spent only a few years in China, didn't know Chinese, and had very little exposure to a tradition that had existed for hundreds of years prior to his visit.

    As a matter of conditions I would expect that Dogen would return to Japan with a teaching reflective of those conditions. For example, based on his view point it appeared to him that Zazen was the main practice of Zen throughout the many schools, though he does acknowledge many means existed. The means he brought back were based on his experiences and that is fair.

    However, due to access to the extensive Zen record we can now know more about the landscape Dogen navigated, and learn more about the Zen that has been passed down to today. In China there were a number of different schools existing at different time periods. One function of each school was to get to know the students on a personal level, then determine whether or not that school's means were suitable for the student's conditions, and if it wasn't a match, they would send them to another school. Sometimes this went back and forth, sometimes it was a good fit, and other times it was ineffective.

    Based on the little I know, it seems that dynamic still plays a role today in the evolution of Dogen's Zen school. Different schools, even within Soto, have their own sort of style. Some rigid and extremely formal, others more laid back and personable. I am here to learn about this school's means and how it's being applied.

    It seems to me in this sense Zazen is a means to remember what might be called the spirit of enlightenment as Vimalakirti put it. A sort of practice of observing the absolute in a consistent and sustained way. Not merely peering into buddha-nature for a momentary taste of Prajñā, but a continued experiential engagement with Prajñā directly. The emphasis of bringing it off the cushion cannot be overstated, and the continued experiential engagement cannot be exhausted.

    While I deeply value learning through studying the textual and video teachings, I consider community interaction to be equally rewarding. With that being said, I want to pause here and get some feedback from the community. No doubt that what I've offered here is my great ignorance about these matters, so I welcome any corrections, insight, or feedback any of you have to offer me. Hopefully through that feedback we can explore these matters more deeply together!

    Much love everyone!

    Update: SatTodayLAH

    Salem
    Last edited by WhiteLotus; Yesterday, 04:47 PM.
  • Bion
    Senior Priest-in-Training
    • Aug 2020
    • 5211

    #2
    Hi, Salem. You express yourself eloquently and seem to have a genuine interest in all things Zen.
    I will let Jundo Roshi or one of our other transmitted teachers to give you a well thought out answer, and will just say that, yes.. Soto Zen has various flavors. In many texts it is referred to as the family wind or similar. There is a certain specific fragrance within every lineage, sort of like every house has a kind of its own smell. Treeleaf is first and foremost a Soto Zen sangha, under the guidance of a head priest, with other ordained practitioners of different seniority levels. We engage in Zazen as our main activity, zazen just as it was taught by master Dogen, our teacher and our teacher’s teacher.
    Of course, as individuals we have different personalities and ways of practicing, but as a group, we move like one school of fish.. to use a metaphor.
    Tomorrow, this school of fish will gather for a one day retreat, to sit zazen, practice noble silence and be together. Join us!!!

    Gassho
    sat lah
    Last edited by Bion; Yesterday, 06:13 AM.
    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

    Comment

    • Kokuu
      Dharma Transmitted Priest
      • Nov 2012
      • 7072

      #3
      Hello!

      Thank you for sharing that! It can take a while to get to know your way around Treeleaf but you might wish to post your poem in our long-running poetry thread hosted by Tai Shi: https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tre...erse-any-verse

      Welcome to the sangha. Jundo can doubtless discuss Zen history with you. If you are available and have the inclination we have our Spring Retreat day tomorrow: https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tre...t-5-april-2025

      Gassho
      Kokuu
      -sattoday/lah

      Comment

      • WhiteLotus
        Member
        • Apr 2025
        • 13

        #4
        Thank you Bion for the warm welcome. There are many differences in terms and hierarchy between what I am familiar with and the Soto lineage. In my view it may be akin to how Zen in China adapted and fused Buddhism, Daoism, folklore religions, and other cultural elements into their Zen schools. Would it be fair to say that some of these differences relate to how Japan made Zen their own, and incorporated some folklore and cultural elements unique to Japan in the Soto school?

        Originally posted by Bion
        Tomorrow, this school of fish will gather for a one day retreat, to sit zazen, practice noble silence and be together. Join us!!!
        I am always with you! Thank you for the event details.

        Comment

        • Bion
          Senior Priest-in-Training
          • Aug 2020
          • 5211

          #5
          Hierarchy in Japanese Zen is pretty much modeled on hierarchy in Chinese Zen. The monastic code master Dogen created was based on the one he encountered in China, which was a product of an earlier one attributed to Baizhang, which can be traced back to others that were created to adapt the parts of the Vinaya that were available in China. Of course, Japan added its own flavor to many elements, both of hierarchy and of practice. Ultimately, there is nothing too extravagant. There are monks who are novices, more senior ones, very senior ones, the ones that have received dharma transmission from the teacher, there is the abbot and that’s pretty much it. Every sangha, however might be slightly different.

          Gassho
          sat lah
          "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

          Comment

          • WhiteLotus
            Member
            • Apr 2025
            • 13

            #6
            Originally posted by Kokuu
            Hello!

            Thank you for sharing that!
            Thank you Kokuu for your reply! Indeed it looks like there is a lot you all have to offer here, and I've been enjoying what I've seen so far. I may take you up on the offer to join in the celebrations tomorrow, it is awesome what you've put together. Currently this potato of a computer I am working with has seen better days, and Zoom might be too much for it. I tested it out a little the yesterday and it struggled. Either way the Zoom element seems to be a fairly important part about this community and I hope to be able to engage with it more.

            Thank you again for all you've done!

            Comment

            • WhiteLotus
              Member
              • Apr 2025
              • 13

              #7
              Originally posted by Bion
              Hierarchy in Japanese Zen is pretty much modeled on hierarchy in Chinese Zen.
              I am grateful for your insights. I will study more about that in time. It's most likely just ignorance on my part about how different terms and such are being applied. As a part of your training for a priest are the precepts involved? If so how are they incorporated?

              My view is that the precepts are actually signs that arise from the inherent nature of a wayfarer, rather than fixed standards an outsider would artificially follow.

              Comment

              • Kotei
                Dharma Transmitted Priest
                • Mar 2015
                • 4411

                #8
                Originally posted by WhiteLotus
                Thank you Bion for the warm welcome. There are many differences in terms and hierarchy between what I am familiar with and the Soto lineage. In my view it may be akin to how Zen in China adapted and fused Buddhism, Daoism, folklore religions, and other cultural elements into their Zen schools. Would it be fair to say that some of these differences relate to how Japan made Zen their own, and incorporated some folklore and cultural elements unique to Japan in the Soto school?
                Hello,
                I believe Master Dogen tried to maintain a more pure, Chinese monastic style of practice in his monastery.
                But already in the 3rd (Gikai etc.) and 4th (Keizan) generation, this opened up to catering to the needs of the rural Japanese people.
                Ceremony, rituals, monastic funerals, weddings, folk believes, believes in spirits, services for patrons.
                I think the success of the Soto "church" and growth of the temple network is closely connected to this and even one of the reasons, why Keizan who popularized Soto is regarded as the 2nd founder of Soto next to Dogen.
                (Of course very much abbreviated and over the centuries there have been "back to the roots" movements, too.
                And the Japanese Soto-church is not necessarily what we are having as Soto in the West)

                Gassho,
                Kotei sat/lah today.
                Last edited by Kotei; 04-04-2025, 07:41 PM.
                義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                Comment

                • Bion
                  Senior Priest-in-Training
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 5211

                  #9
                  Originally posted by WhiteLotus

                  I am grateful for your insights. I will study more about that in time. It's most likely just ignorance on my part about how different terms and such are being applied. As a part of your training for a priest are the precepts involved? If so how are they incorporated?

                  My view is that the precepts are actually signs that arise from the inherent nature of a wayfarer, rather than fixed standards an outsider would artificially follow.
                  The precepts are a core element of buddhism, for both monastics and lay practitioners, in all traditions. Before I was even ordained as a monk, I received the bodhisattva precepts at Jukai. From that moment on, it is one's responsibility to keep them, live by them and continuously investigate what they mean for every situation that arises. The Buddha was pretty clear about morals and precepts and doing good, but of course, life is dynamic and so one's responsibility is to continuously ask what is means to live by the precepts and check one's position in relation to them. At ordination, one is yet again given the precepts along one's home leaving vows, so clearly, they are very important.
                  In the Mahayana tradition, we take on some of the bodhisattva precepts that are listed in the Brahma's Net Sutra (the Mahayana version). Interestingly enough, the Brahma's Net Sutra from the Pali Canon presents relatively the same precepts as qualities of the Buddha, as ways in which he behaves and exists and that earn him praise from all. So, yeah, in the texts, a perfected bodhisattva, a fully enlightened Buddha naturally acts in accordance with the precepts, their actions are precepts. For the sake of helping us, as we polish and mold ourselves through practice, we have the Precepts in a codified form, to use as both a roadmap and mirror to check ourselves. That's my take on it however, as a simple monk practicing and learning. Take it all with some salt.

                  Oh, by the way, please have a look at this here, which is an important part of engaging with the Treeleaf forum: LINK

                  Gassho
                  sat lah
                  "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                  Comment

                  • WhiteLotus
                    Member
                    • Apr 2025
                    • 13

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kotei
                    Hello,
                    I believe Master Dogen tried to maintain a more pure, Chinese monastic style of practice in his monastery.
                    Excellent overview! It seems there is far more fluidity than I had first imagined. One of the reasons I am excited to learn more about what you've all put together relates very much to this element. The fluidity is certainly needed to accord with active circumstances, and with today's technology it is awesome to see these teachings offered like they are here online.

                    When I was young and read about Dogen I thought of him as a sort of renegade in Japanese culture. Contrasted with the other schools he talked about at the time. Leading to him going to China and so on. It seems based on your insights, he may have founded a school of renegades in Japan. Would that be fair to say?

                    Comment

                    • WhiteLotus
                      Member
                      • Apr 2025
                      • 13

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bion
                      sat lah
                      Updated OP, thank you for informing me!

                      Comment

                      • Kotei
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Mar 2015
                        • 4411

                        #12
                        Originally posted by WhiteLotus
                        When I was young and read about Dogen I thought of him as a sort of renegade in Japanese culture. Contrasted with the other schools he talked about at the time. Leading to him going to China and so on. It seems based on your insights, he may have founded a school of renegades in Japan. Would that be fair to say?
                        I have to confess that I like that idea a bit too much
                        But I believe he went to China because he thought the true authentic Buddhism is not to be found in Japan and that he needs to bring it there.
                        On the other hand, he also stated that if you think there are different Buddhist schools, you are terribly wrong.
                        well...
                        Gassho,
                        Kotei sat/lah today.
                        義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.

                        Comment

                        • Kokuu
                          Dharma Transmitted Priest
                          • Nov 2012
                          • 7072

                          #13
                          It seems based on your insights, he may have founded a school of renegades in Japan. Would that be fair to say?
                          I suppose you could say that in a way at the beginning, as what Dogen brought back to China differed from the Tendai tradition(which, as I understand it, was most dominant in Japan at the time), Pure Land practice, and even the Rinzai school of Zen which was itself quite young in Japan.

                          However, over time Soto Zen established its own orthodoxy. There are some much-loved renegades and rebels but I imagine that most monastics pretty much adhered to what was expected, and lay people were largely concerned with the kinds of ritual that Kotei mentions including ancestor veneration.

                          Gassho
                          Kokuu
                          -sattoday-

                          Comment

                          • WhiteLotus
                            Member
                            • Apr 2025
                            • 13

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Kotei
                            he also stated that if you think there are different Buddhist schools, you are terribly wrong.
                            well...
                            Sat
                            Relative to the absolute, there has only ever been this one school of Buddhism. It penetrates all phenomena equally everywhere. So it can be called infinite and an inexhaustible lamp.
                            Lah

                            Comment

                            • WhiteLotus
                              Member
                              • Apr 2025
                              • 13

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Kokuu
                              I suppose you could say that in a way at the beginning, as what Dogen brought back to China differed from the Tendai tradition(which, as I understand it, was most dominant in Japan at the time), Pure Land practice, and even the Rinzai school of Zen which was itself quite young in Japan.

                              However, over time Soto Zen established its own orthodoxy. There are some much-loved renegades and rebels but I imagine that most monastics pretty much adhered to what was expected, and lay people were largely concerned with the kinds of ritual that Kotei mentions including ancestor veneration.
                              After I have gained more knowledge about those elements I would like to explore them in more detail before engaging with them. No doubt any culture weaves in deep meaning through symbology, relics, and rituals; and so far I don't know a lot about it when it comes to Soto Zen. Other than there seems to be a richness there.

                              Comment

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