White Lotus AMA

[Bion]

Updated OP, thank you for informing me!

No problem! I actually forgot to mention that you also add a profile photo, please. We like to keep things human around here. Makes it easier to remember to be kind and compassionate to each other.

Gassho
sat lah

[Seiko]

Hello Salem,
Welcome. Treeleaf is a very friendly place. I hope you will sit with us?

Gasshō, Seiko, stlah

[Jundo]

Hi All,

I see that there has been an interesting chat while I was asleep in Japan. I think the others already said it, but I will comment a little ...

Nice to have you here, White Lotus. Welcome again!

One stark contrast between the Chinese Zen record and what I have observed so far about Soto Zen, is that the Chinese masters utilized no fixed form, and Soto Zen utilizes fixed form. I do not find this to be a contradiction however, as no fixed form does not exclude fixed forms. Based on my limited knowledge about Soto history, there are some honest facts to consider about Dogen's Zen school. One important observation is that Dogen spent only a few years in China, didn't know Chinese, and had very little exposure to a tradition that had existed for hundreds of years prior to his visit.

Maybe there are a few misunderstandings there. I am not sure where you have been getting your information. First, the Chinese Zen masters, from long before Dogen's time, were largely monastics like any other Buddhist monks, and lived a life of daily rituals, calendars and forms. Dogen copied these very closely when he returned to Japan, very faithful the older rules discussed here (in a study by my friend, the Taiwanese priest, Yifa):

The Origins of Buddhist Monastic Codes in China contains the first complete translation of China’s earliest and most influential monastic code. The twelfth-century text Chanyuan qinggui (Rules of Purity for the Chan Monastery) provides a wealth of detail on all aspects of life in public Buddhist monasteries during the Sung (960–1279). Part One consists of Yifa’s overview of the development of monastic regulations in Chinese Buddhist history, a biography of the text’s author, and an analysis of the social and cultural context of premodern Chinese Buddhist monasticism. Of particular importance are the interconnections made between Chan traditions and the dual heritages of Chinese culture and Indian Buddhist Vinaya. LINK

Forms are traditionally very important in Soto Zen because one finds freedom in the forms, like a dance in which we lose (and find) ourself in the rhythm and patterns. Zen is far from the "do whatever ya want" and "break all the rules" that the early beatniks thought in the 1950s. Neither are we prisoners of rules, but find good balance.

As to Dogen, where have you gotten your information? Dogen began studying and practicing as a monastic in Japan's rigorous Tendai monasteries as a young teen, and (based on the depth and breadth of his knowledge of Buddhist literature based on his writings) was well educated in those doctrines and writings, and in the general classical learning of the time. That included a lifetime of education in written Chinese, and formal Buddhist Chinese, so while he may have had some language difficulties in China with general conversation, he was certainly expert in written Chinese and formal expression. It was much like the situation where Latin was the lingua franca for Catholic clergy in the past. He was in China for about 5 years, from age 23 to about age 28. He spent all that time at several of China's major Zen (Chan) monasteries. When he returned to Japan, he was an interesting mix of traditionalist (very strict in following Chinese forms) and innovator (putting his own twist on things.)

You are correct that, especially in the West, different Soto Zen (and other Zen and Buddhist groups) each tend to have their own flavor and approach. Here, I call us "ritual minimalists," BUT the rituals we do (from Chanting the Heart Sutra to bowing to today's Retreat) we pour ourselves into sincerely, thus to find ourself again. Central to that is our daily sitting of Shikantaza Zazen, one of the few hard rules we have around here, and our seeking to live gently and wisely in harmony with the Precepts. So, we say "When in Rome, Bow as the Romans Bow." One thing that our Sangha is well known for, however, is adjusting rituals for the physical restrictions of our members with health restrictions, but even then ... what we do, we do with sincerity.

... One function of each school was to get to know the students on a personal level, then determine whether or not that school's means were suitable for the student's conditions, and if it wasn't a match, they would send them to another school.

Then as now, there are many practices and places to practice. If folks did not resonate with a particular place or tradition, they might wander off to another place. It is the same today.

A sort of practice of observing the absolute in a consistent and sustained way. Not merely peering into buddha-nature for a momentary taste of Prajñā, but a continued experiential engagement with Prajñā directly.

Yes, Dogen spoke on continuous, ongoing "Practice-Enlightenment." We sit Zazen with nothing lacking, nothing to attain. Then we get up from the cushion and get back to the busy world, seeking to live gently by the Precepts, and to bring this "nothing lacking, nothing to attain" back in to a world with many things lacking and much in need of doing.

In any case, welcome again.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - As mentioned, it would be appreciated if you sign a human first name to your posts (assuming you have not received a Precept Name), and would put a human face photo. It helps keeps things a little warmer and more human around here, so we can look each other in the eyes a bit.

By the way, I am watching an American TV series on the exercise bike, White Lotus. It is good, about the Dukka of rich and powerful people caught in Samsara suffering at a Thai luxury resort. It has a Buddhist theme this season (I don't think that most Thai Theravada teachers would fully agree with the teacher in the show, below, on all points, but it is still a good teaching) ...
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[WhiteLotus]

Nice to have you here, White Lotus. Welcome again!

Thank you so much Jundo for taking the time to address my vast ignorance on these matters. While I have studied the Chinese text, my knowledge about Japanese lineages is very limited. At this time I am keeping textual knowledge fairly limited as a matter of my practice, and instead investigating the living tradition as it exists today. Which is among my main interest in coming here to get to know you all.

No doubt I have my own customs and practices which may align or differ from what you are familiar with, and your customs and practices might be unfamiliar to me in the same regard. I welcome these differences, and hope to learn from each of you! Accordingly, I realize I am a guest in this house you have graciously made and compassionately opened up to the public.

Up until I came here the only practitioners I have interacted with have been an assortment of individuals, most of which were not actively engaged in a community. Though many had a past engagement with different Zen communities to some degree. So I am sure you can imagine how hazy my understanding of your tradition may be. Since I am in your house I wish to remain respectful of your tradition as I navigate this with you.

Some communities are informal and dialog is fundamental, involving the whole range of social interactions, with very little rules on how members engage with one another. Other communities are very formal, and interactions are strongly controlled, official narratives dictated, and social behaviors strictly enforced. Based on the interactions here so far, it may be that your school is somewhere in between. Narratives about text are realized as teaching tools, rather than strictly enforced as accurate histories for example.

It is my custom to honor someone's claim by examining it closely, critically, and personally. This naturally leads to mutual understanding, even if it means disagreement, or accepting of one's own mistakes or misunderstanding. It also involves challenging these matters to deeply understand them and investigate them together. While this is my custom, I do not wish to impose it upon this community if it isn't welcomed. Please feel free to let me know if this is acceptable or not.

Another custom I have is honoring the many Zen masters I've studied by quoting from their records, bringing life to the text by keeping it in circulation, talked about, and studied. Based on previous encounters with practitioners it seems that some schools encourage textual studies, while others discourage it. Often the discouragement relates to a reliance of the text over practical application, and that is understandable. If this isn't a custom acceptable for this school then feel free to let me know and I will minimize or discontinue applying it here.

Thank you for your patience and understanding. After we clarify what is expected of me here, I look forward to navigating this together more! I absolutely love many aspects of your approach so far. I like the richness you encourage through satlah, which if done sincerely is a blessing in too many ways to list. I like the more personable approach of humanizing a rather dehumanized technology by incorporating elements which encourage conscious human fellowship.

Which brings me to the video you shared. It is this sort of fellowship that reminds us most of home. It is my view that reality is oneness, the nature of oneness is union, and the experience of union is fellowship.


Much love to you my friend,
Salem

[WhiteLotus]

Forms are traditionally very important in Soto Zen because one finds freedom in the forms, like a dance in which we lose (and find) ourself in the rhythm and patterns. Zen is far from the "do whatever ya want" and "break all the rules" that the early beatniks thought in the 1950s. Neither are we prisoners of rules, but find good balance.

A short story you inspired me to share Jundo; I was somewhere in the middle of translating Mahasattva Fu's record when I came across one of his poems. The render I got reminded me of the old Sesame Street songs, and funny enough, the more I translated of the poem the more it sounded like a lullaby of sorts. So I made this track to capture it and share with others.

The Floating Bubbles Song by Fu Dashi

Do you not see how the sudden rain flows across the courtyard?
On the water, countless bubbles arise and dissipate.
One drop forms, and another breaks.
How many times do they vanish, and how many times do they float again?

Floating bubbles gather and scatter endlessly.
They vary in size and shape, yet their appearance is similar.
At times, they suddenly appear, named floating bubbles.
Once dissolved, they return to the original water.

Floating bubbles have existence and non-existence by their own nature.
Images of emptiness and images of form are all called illusory.
In the end, they are all like mirages and shadows.
The foolish call them half of a pearl.

At this moment, I reflect on the humble lay practitioner:
One glimpse of floating bubbles and one can awaken to life and death.
The vast human world is ultimately all illusion.
For a moment, let us use the metaphor of floating bubbles to compare.

Each thought in the human realm is full of rise and fall.
The passing water flows eastward, with no end in sight.
I send this message to the world's wealthy and powerful:
How many moments are left as we watch the passing of time?


Much love to you my friend,
Salem

[Jundo]

It is my custom to honor someone's claim by examining it closely, critically, and personally. This naturally leads to mutual understanding, even if it means disagreement, or accepting of one's own mistakes or misunderstanding. It also involves challenging these matters to deeply understand them and investigate them together. While this is my custom, I do not wish to impose it upon this community if it isn't welcomed. Please feel free to let me know if this is acceptable or not.

Another custom I have is honoring the many Zen masters I've studied by quoting from their records, bringing life to the text by keeping it in circulation, talked about, and studied. Based on previous encounters with practitioners it seems that some schools encourage textual studies, while others discourage it. Often the discouragement relates to a reliance of the text over practical application, and that is understandable. If this isn't a custom acceptable for this school then feel free to let me know and I will minimize or discontinue applying it here.

Hi Salem (Is that your first name? I thought it might be the greeting of peace, Salam.)

Questioning and peaceful discussion is always welcome. After awhile, I suppose, if the answers given do not agree with one's own perspective, then folks must just agree to disagree.

One thing on the stories of the old masters: Most are myths, especially any of the Zen Koans and stories from earlier than 1000 years ago, not literal histories and frequently not the actual words of the people quoted in the stories. Even if having a historical basis, they are frequently highly embellished and retold, and often this can be traced through several versions of the story as it was requoted. Most of the classic stories from the Tang Dynasty, for example, are actually creations of the later Song Dynasty, which sought to create stories to capture the Wisdom of a golden age of the past, but they are religious fiction. Even the classic Platform Sutra, for example, is likely a work created without reference to the main figure in it, the Sixth Ancestor Hui-neng, who likely did little or any of what is said in the tale.

That does not mean that they are not "True," however, in the sense that a myth can express and embody a real "Truth" about the world. It is just that they are often stories, or hagiography (a work that praises or tries to convey the extreme perfection of a saint or hero.) Even so, they may be as true as true can be for the Wisdom they contain.

Gassho, Jundo
SatTodayLah

PS - Even though we do not strictly ask for someone who is new here, it would be good if you "SatToday" and undertook a LAH practice in the prior day before posting. Thank you, Salem.

[WhiteLotus]

Hi Salem (Is that your first name? I thought it might be the greeting of peace, Salam.)

Yes indeed my name is Salem, and indeed it does mean peace like saleem and shalom.

Questioning and peaceful discussion is always welcome. After awhile, I suppose, if the answers given do not agree with one's own perspective, then folks must just agree to disagree.

One thing on the stories of the old masters: Most are myths, especially any of the Zen Koans and stories from earlier than 1000 years ago, not literal histories and frequently not the actual words of the people quoted in the stories. Even if having a historical basis, they are frequently highly embellished and retold, and often this can be traced through several versions of the story as it was requoted. Most of the classic stories from the Tang Dynasty, for example, are actually creations of the later Song Dynasty, which sought to create stories to capture the Wisdom of a golden age of the past, but they are religious fiction. Even the classic Platform Sutra, for example, is likely a work created without reference to the main figure in it, the Sixth Ancestor Hui-neng, who likely did little or any of what is said in the tale.

That does not mean that they are not "True," however, in the sense that a myth can express and embody a real "Truth" about the world. It is just that they are often stories, or hagiography (a work that praises or tries to convey the extreme perfection of a saint or hero.) Even so, they may be as true as true can be for the Wisdom they contain.

I am so glad to know that you're aware of the Platform Sutra's history. Indeed it along with the Xinxin Ming, usually translated as “Faith in Mind” or “Trust in Mind” inscription attributed to Sengcan, the Xin Ming or "Mind inscription" attributed to Niutou Farong, and the Xinwang Ming or "Mind King Inscription" attributed to layman Mahasattva Fu, are all considered likely works of the early Ox head school.

It is not all that different from how Chapter Twenty-Six: On the Action of the Child from the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra describes using toys to lure one's children from a burning house, and using yellow leaves to stop crying children. This found a special resonance with the Chinese people, as a Daoist would utilize strips of yellow paper with text written on it to stop newborn babies from crying fits as a practice of spiritual medicine at the time. This is of course echoed throughout the record:

As the Chun Chou Lu of Huang Po tells: "If you would spend all your time—walking, standing, sitting or lying down—learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind, you could be sure of ultimately attaining the goal. Since your strength is insufficient, you might not be able to transcend samsāra by a single leap; but, after five or ten years, you would surely have made a good beginning and be able to make further progress spontaneously. It is because you are not that sort of man that you feel obliged to employ your mind ‘studying Dhyāna' and ‘studying the Way'. What has all that got to do with Buddhism?

So it is said that all the Tathāgata taught was just to convert people; it was like pretending yellow leaves are real gold just to stop the flow of a child's tears; it must by no means be regarded as though it were ultimate truth. If you take it for truth, you are no member of our sect; and what bearing can it have on your original substance? So the Sūtra says: ‘What is called supreme perfect wisdom implies that there is really nothing whatever to be attained.' If you are also able to understand this, you will realize that the Way of the Buddhas and the Way of devils are equally wide of the mark. The original pure, glistening universe is neither square nor round, big nor small; it is without any such distinctions as long and short, it is beyond attachment and activity, ignorance and Enlightenment. You must see clearly that there is really nothing at all—no humans and no Buddhas. The great chiliocosms, numberless as grains of sand, are mere bubbles."

PS - Even though we do not strictly ask for someone who is new here, it would be good if you "SatToday" and undertook a LAH practice in the prior day before posting. Thank you, Salem.

Indeed this is a practice I have done since it was made aware to me. When I put sala, or SatLah or any combination of these it marks that I have done this practice. When I do not put sala, it also indicates that I have done this practice. Why? Because I honor this practice deeply I do not wish for it to be taken lightly. If I were to make it a habit of repeating the same way each time it may very well dull my sharp edge. So instead, sometimes I say sala, sometimes I say, SatLah, other times I may say something else, and even when I say nothing at all, I have done this practice.



Salem
SaLa!