Zazen and Anxiety

[Benjamin Gieseke]

So I, like many here I'm guessing, have anxiety. I'm fortunate not experience it to truly debilitating levels but it comes and goes in my life and some seasons are worse than others. The past few days have been especially challenging.

I know Zazen is not explicitly therapy, or a calming exercise, or anything like that, and I know we are meant to sit with what comes up, whatever that may be. The challenge I find I am experiencing is that if my anxiety is particularly bad, or is triggered right before or during Zazen, for example, sitting for 30 minutes with anxiety can feel like I'm just stewing in it, and potentially even making it worse. I guess my question is, for mental disturbances such as this and others, at what point does it make more sense to step away from Zazen, address the feeling, and then return to the cushion with a calmer mind? Maybe what I'm looking for is not even clarity, just permission to do so?

Thank you all, I welcome your perspective and advice!
Gassho,
Benjamin

Edit: Update below, and a refinement of my original question - has anyone else experienced Zazen to make their anxiety worse, and what did you do/what helped?

[Onsho]

To my uneducated understanding:
We sit in rooms that are not too cold and not too hot. Otherwise we will be distracted.

We sit in rooms that are not too dark and not too bright. Otherwise, we will be distracted.

and we sit in a position that is not too left and not too right. Otherwise we could become sore and distracted.

I think it's fine to take suggestions from your nervous system. That anxiety is temporary. As long as when you practice, practice wholeheartedly. Timelessness does not have timed weekly intervals and expectations on achieving them.

Gassho
Onsho
SatLah

[John MacBrayne]

There are some videos on You Tube where Nishijima Rōshi discusses his views on the functioning of the nervous system in relation to Zazen. I found them very interesting indeed.
gassho
J
sat/lah

[Bion]

Hi, Benjamin
I´ll try to briefly tackle at least in part your question. Better answers will come. First of all, for any serious issues, professionals should be consulted, and that includes these aspects that have to do with our mind being too troubled. In some cases, a mental health professional can advise against zazen. So, be very mindful of that!

It seems to me, though, like you are describing a somewhat lighter level of anxiety here, and so, I will draw from master Dogen's Universal Guide to the Standard Method of Zazen. And what he advises us to be mindful of is precisely the state of our minds. He says : ¨Cast aside all involvements. Give the myriad things a rest. Do not think of good and bad. Do not consider right and wrong. Stop the driving movement of mind, will, consciousness. Cease intellectual consideration through images, thoughts, and reflections.¨ So, obviously, he begins with what is normal, for our minds to be busy and clouded. Whatever it is that's causing our anxiety is there, churning in our mind and so his advice is to put it down when we go to sit. He does not say to come back when all things have dropped off on their own, but he says to cast them aside. Easier said than done, I know, but truly, zazen is always a deliberate action of opposing the tremendously powerful force of the habit energy we are driven by, that keeps us constantly running, running, running both in our minds and in our bodies.
Now, the truth is we are free to choose when to sit zazen, so if one is too sleepy, too anxious, too distracted, one can always choose a different moment to engage in sitting, but .. it can easily become a running away from ourselves and an attempt at creating a special mind frame before we sit without which we then feel zazen is not ¨good¨.. I think sometimes we end up stewing in all kinds of thoughts and emotions during zazen because we latch on to them and ponder them during the sitting. So, if not debilitatingly anxious, maybe we just fluff our cushion, straighten the back, or lay down, breathe through our nose, keep the eyes open and open the hand of thought (which also grabs onto anxiety ) whether we manage to do so for 30 minutes or only 5. If anything, I think zazen actually offers us the space to deal with those emotions by allowing them to be, rather than trying to think them into disappearing.
That is just my take and understanding, so please, throw some salt on it and listen to wiser people!

My sincere apologies for making this so long

Gassho
sat lah

[mdonnoe]

Benjamin,

I too have sat with "heart racing, thoughts racing" and found it challenging!

Based on my own experiences in meditation (as well as my clinical training), if I may, I suggest starting with a more "body-oriented practice," like kinhin, rather than starting with shikantaza, in times of great anxiety or turmoil that make it hard to sit. Kinhin allows you to actively engage movement and breathing with mindful attention (lest you stumble and fall!), and can be of great help. If you do something like "double your normal kinhin time, then half your normal shikantaza time" to start with, that may be a good first (mindful) step.

All that being said, please take this with a grain of salt - you know your body/mind better than anyone, and may find different advice (or a different practice) help more.

Gassho,
Michael
SatLah

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Thank you everyone for your responses so far! As I've sat with this post this afternoon and read your responses, I have just a couple points of clarity and a refinement of my original question.

First, I have been clinically diagnosed with anxiety and have coping techniques available in cooperation with my primary doctor and therapist (exercise, medication, etc.). The challenge I've been having the past few days is that sometimes I can be in a place where I feel mentally calm, but physically am experiencing the effects of anxiety (chest tight, heart pounding, etc.), and its in these moments where I'm not sure sitting Zazen is helping. I do think kinhin might be a good option in these moments though, mdonnoe, thank you for that suggestion. I guess I'm trying to find the balance between zazen and other forms of relief, if that's the right word.

I think my refined question is: has anyone else experienced Zazen to make their anxiety worse, and what did you do/what helped?

Thank you, Gassho.
Benjamin
SatLah

[Matt Johnson]

Thank you everyone for your responses so far! As I've sat with this post this afternoon and read your responses, I have just a couple points of clarity and a refinement of my original question.

First, I have been clinically diagnosed with anxiety and have coping techniques available in cooperation with my primary doctor and therapist (exercise, medication, etc.). The challenge I've been having the past few days is that sometimes I can be in a place where I feel mentally calm, but physically am experiencing the effects of anxiety (chest tight, heart pounding, etc.), and its in these moments where I'm not sure sitting Zazen is helping. I do think kinhin might be a good option in these moments though, mdonnoe, thank you for that suggestion. I guess I'm trying to find the balance between zazen and other forms of relief, if that's the right word.

I think my refined question is: has anyone else experienced Zazen to make their anxiety worse, and what did you do/what helped?

I was about to respond to your initial question, but then I read this update... I can only share this as my personal experience and this is in no way intended as any sort of advice.

I have had the experience of having my anxiety exacerbated by sitting... at least that's how it felt... whether it actually was or not is a little bit more complicated...

most of the time that this has happened to me it's been during rather intense sesshins (although sometimes it would happen just at home)....in my case, some of the rounds of sitting were extremely painful and so I actually felt a little bit traumatised and afraid to sit again. This understandably led to a anxious reaction....

moreover, my symptoms extended past anxiety and there were times when I would have diagnosed myself with mild psychosis.... and it definitely seemed that the long hours of sitting triggered it.... But what is less clear is whether it was causing it or whether it was releasing it and making me feel better afterward, which also seem to be the case....

in which case I guess I conceptualised my Zazen for a period of time as purgative.... now that's not necessarily a traditional way of explaining it. But there is quite a fair bit of literature pertaining to unconscious mental material coming to the surface when we sit and sometimes there are physiological events which proceed this stuff (in many cases it's like the body and the nervous system knows before we do)... at least that's the way it was in my case...

Let me know if you want to know more about that...

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Tom A.]

It is natural to give power to our uncomfortable thoughts and struggle to get rid of uncomfortable emotions. We naturally do this. Worry and anxiety can give the illusion we are solving a problem when in reality we are just worried and anxious. Various exercises and techniques can can work moderately well when done in moderation but in Zazen we drop all that, open the hand of thought, and thoughts sometimes lose their power, we see the silver lining in the clouds and the sky opens and the sun shines beyond all comparisons! It beats trying to avoid and wrestle with difficult emotions. I will quote what Jundo once said to me:

Sun Buddha
Moon Buddha
There is a time to laugh
And a time to cry

A time for anxiety
and a time for calmness

Gassho,

Tom

Sat/Lah

[Meishin]

First, I have been clinically diagnosed with anxiety and have coping techniques available in cooperation with my primary doctor and therapist (exercise, medication, etc.). The challenge I've been having the past few days is that sometimes I can be in a place where I feel mentally calm, but physically am experiencing the effects of anxiety (chest tight, heart pounding, etc.), and its in these moments where I'm not sure sitting Zazen is helping.

Benjamin, I am a retired psychologist. In my experience when therapists recommend meditation, they usually mean focused meditation. With cinical anxiety, as opposed to just being a little nervous, watching thoughts drift by easily becomes rumination. The problem is exacerbated. Your description highlights the physiological aspect of "being anxious." Disruptions in the limbic system. That's why drugs tend to work. In my clinical practice I had patients who meditated. But I did not recommend Zazen until the clinical anxiety had come under control -- and there definitely were cases where that happened -- I formed a sitting group with several former patients.

Zazen is not a treatment for a broken leg. Neither is it a treatment for anxiety disorders.

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[Tokan]

Benjamin, I am a retired psychologist. In my experience when therapists recommend meditation, they usually mean focused meditation. With cinical anxiety, as opposed to just being a little nervous, watching thoughts drift by easily becomes rumination. The problem is exacerbated. Your description highlights the physiological aspect of "being anxious." Disruptions in the limbic system. That's why drugs tend to work. In my clinical practice I had patients who meditated. But I did not recommend Zazen until the clinical anxiety had come under control -- and there definitely were cases where that happened -- I formed a sitting group with several former patients.

Zazen is not a treatment for a broken leg. Neither is it a treatment for anxiety disorders.

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

Hi all

I thought your response was great Meishin, and I'd like to share a little of my own experience here.

I am a novice priest but my comments here do not reflect zen teaching or Treeleaf's views. I am a nurse, more lately specialising in psychiatry, but I am also a person with lived experience of OCD and possibly undiagnosed ADHD as a child - you were just 'unruly' back then. I think, when I read Buddhist articles or threads, we often conflate dukkha (which can include worry, day to day anxiety, stress) with mental illness (disabling anxiety) or the impact of neurodiversity. From the outside, the two may look very similar, but they are far from it as an internal experience. When I have been worried, say about the outcome of a dispute at work, which has caused me anxiety, I would say that zazen has been helpful in steadying my ship before sailing into the storm. Contrast this with when my OCD is telling me (in the same situation) that I am an imposter, a failure, that I am worthless, a fraud, and that the best thing I can do for everyone is quit. I have colleagues, and not just a few, that seem unable to comprehend this difference and incorrectly assume that everyone 'has control' over their minds. It is not always so clear cut! There are cognitive processes that we rely on in meditation/zazen to 'open the hand of thought', but some disorders, shall we say, have a tightly closed fist.

I would always recommend that a person seek medical advice/talk to a therapist if they are having persistent anxiety, worry (rumination), or a lowered mood and discuss your meditation, zazen, or shikantaza practice. Thanks for raising this topic, as Buddhists we need to develop our own understanding of how to work with mental illness or neurodiversity.

Gassho and metta to all who struggle with anxiety

Tokan (satlah)

[RobO]

Hi Benjamin,

I also experience anxiety, though it tends to show up differently for me, more on the social anxiety side and as OCD.

I can only speak from my own experience here, I’m not a teacher, and I’m certainly not a mental health practitioner, so please take this with a pinch of salt!

I do find that my OCD occasionally pops up during zazen. It has that element of “aiming right where it hurts,” so if I’d prefer it not to show up in zazen, that’s exactly where it’s going to show up. I sit with it if at all possible each time because, if I retreat, I know it will come back stronger (that’s the OCD trap).

I know it’s not quite the same, but anxiety can have that similar resistance quality to it, which, can make it more likely to surface if one retreats. But it’s a delicate balance - trying to tensely power through your sits all the time doesn’t feel like the answer either.

When it does come up for you, does the intensity shift at all while you sit? Does it build up throughout, or does it come and go?

It’s tricky to find that balance of not giving in too soon and reinforcing a cycle where anxiety becomes attached to zazen, versus letting it get so intense that there’s no equanimity left. For you it might all come down to what exactly is happening during those sits and how strong it feels.

As for different types of meditation and anxiety, I can only speak for myself. I find shikantaza the “safest” in that regard. I also do metta (also quite safe), some vipassana, and concentration, but shikantaza feels like home to me, thoughts dont stick in quite the same way, spacious, non striving, gentle.

Your mental health, though, comes first. In the end, only you can say what’s right for you.

And on that note, I’d just like to say thank you for sitting with me all this time in our group. It’s been a while now, over a year? Your consistency has been a great help to me personally.

Much metta to you!

Gassho,
Rob

Sat/lah

[Chikyou]

So I, like many here I'm guessing, have anxiety. I'm fortunate not experience it to truly debilitating levels but it comes and goes in my life and some seasons are worse than others. The past few days have been especially challenging.

I know Zazen is not explicitly therapy, or a calming exercise, or anything like that, and I know we are meant to sit with what comes up, whatever that may be. The challenge I find I am experiencing is that if my anxiety is particularly bad, or is triggered right before or during Zazen, for example, sitting for 30 minutes with anxiety can feel like I'm just stewing in it, and potentially even making it worse. I guess my question is, for mental disturbances such as this and others, at what point does it make more sense to step away from Zazen, address the feeling, and then return to the cushion with a calmer mind? Maybe what I'm looking for is not even clarity, just permission to do so?

Thank you all, I welcome your perspective and advice!
Gassho,
Benjamin

Edit: Update below, and a refinement of my original question - has anyone else experienced Zazen to make their anxiety worse, and what did you do/what helped?

My experience has been (over the course of several years of regular practice) is that after a while, I stopped feeling any particular way about being anxious, emotional etc. I’ve sat scared. I’ve sat angry. I’ve sat with tears streaming down my face. In the end, I was just sitting, scared, angry, or with tears streaming down my face. That’s just how it was that day, and it’s of no particular importance. (Of course sometimes all is peace and joy too!) I learned that I am not my thoughts and feelings. Sometimes, I feel as though I’m sitting in the eye of a storm, with all of life swirling around me and I, in the center, stillness.

Sorry for running long
Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Tom A.]

For the record, I also think a professional opinion about mental health is important. I am in no way promoting “spiritual bypassing.” Please seek help if you are struggling.

That being said, I’m guessing that exposure to difficult thoughts and emotions while staying open and centered as the clouds and storms float by, does something psychologically positive. I don’t know and I don’t need to know. This is a religion and not psychology.

My question is, when I got my mental health worked out, then what? Life is still painful, I still suffer, I still get anxious, and sometimes I still have panic attacks and meltdowns. Charlotte Beck has a helpful metaphor that I tweaked a little: You are flying a glider in a hurricane, and you naturally want to get to the calm center. The only problem is that life is the hurricane and when you get to the calm center, it is that blank space that Jundo recently talked about where I would use Zazen to paint myself into a corner and my life got smaller and smaller. Life is in the hurricane, and we are the hurricane. Now, I try to find the calm center inside myself instead of seeking outward to get to the illusory calm center outside of myself where nothing matters, if that makes sense.

The greatest “benefit” I have experienced is the same as Chikyō, I can be anxious or depressed AND still love and live life.


Gassho,
Tom

SatLah

[Onki]

So I, like many here I'm guessing, have anxiety. I'm fortunate not experience it to truly debilitating levels but it comes and goes in my life and some seasons are worse than others. The past few days have been especially challenging.

I know Zazen is not explicitly therapy, or a calming exercise, or anything like that, and I know we are meant to sit with what comes up, whatever that may be. The challenge I find I am experiencing is that if my anxiety is particularly bad, or is triggered right before or during Zazen, for example, sitting for 30 minutes with anxiety can feel like I'm just stewing in it, and potentially even making it worse. I guess my question is, for mental disturbances such as this and others, at what point does it make more sense to step away from Zazen, address the feeling, and then return to the cushion with a calmer mind? Maybe what I'm looking for is not even clarity, just permission to do so?

Thank you all, I welcome your perspective and advice!
Gassho,
Benjamin

Edit: Update below, and a refinement of my original question - has anyone else experienced Zazen to make their anxiety worse, and what did you do/what helped?

Hey Benjamin,

I am going to speak from my own experience with mental illness that includes anxiety, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have noticed when my mental illnesses are ramping up/I’m experiencing an episode that my initial response is to stop doing Zazen. And to be honest I have stopped sitting Zazen in the past because of this. There is this resistance that I get. I don’t want to do anything, not Treeleaf specific but ANYTHING. All I want is to close myself off to the world, stay in the darkness, and drown. I have done this for a long time.

It has taken years for me to finally understand that Life and Practice are not separate. Not One, not Two.

When I experience anxiety, I try not to run away from it or push it away. I feel that only prolongs my suffering. Despite knowing this, there are still times where I do not want to sit. When this occurs, I will sit for 1 minute. 1 minute of breathing, of silence. One minute of letting go and feeling whatever it is that I am feeling without any judgements on my part as best I can. I’m sure you’ve heard me say this before. There is a Shunryu Suzuki quote I love that says “Let your thoughts come and go in your mind, just don’t serve them tea.” Basically, feel whatever it is that you are feeling but do not cling or hold onto any of those feelings. Don’t serve them tea.

I hope this helps

Gasshō,

On

[Tom A.]

I think it’s extremely dangerous to do Zen. It has similarities to therapies but that’s about it. For example, CBT is science based and Zen is not. Zen has nothing practical but nonsense. That is why people can sit for years and never have a breakthrough, it takes five years to have one breakthrough that you could get with one ACT exercise, for example. It is why, when that lady lost her husband she stopped Zazen. No one gives practical advice. It is also why Zen is rife with sexual abuse and why they were kamikazes in WWII. Don’t give me any of that ‘no true Scotsman fallacy’ crap. I’m done with it. People just sit around without doing anything practical. This has an extremely anti-therapy bent and thus an anti-science bent. It’s nonsense. We learn from our expanding knowledge of science, not Stone Age religions. It’s funny because Jundo claims to love science. What a joke. Wearing a dress and a bib doesn’t make someone special. Those old Japanese sexual abusers were more Zen than Jundo. No true Scotsman. Zen is pre Socratic “philosophy” like the Milesians. I’m not shy about calling crap what it is.