Zazen and Anxiety

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Thank you everyone for your responses here - I appreciate you all taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences, they have been helpful and welcome and offered me many insights into my own practice and mental health. I wish I had time to respond to you all but a busy work season is precluding me from taking the time I would like write a thoughtful response, I just wanted to acknowledge everyone and the supportive network of community we have here! Please know I've been reading and considering everyone's comments as I'm able!

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

[Benjamin Gieseke]

And on that note, I’d just like to say thank you for sitting with me all this time in our group. It’s been a while now, over a year? Your consistency has been a great help to me personally.
Much metta to you!
Gassho,
Rob

Sat/lah

Rob! Good to see you! It has been just about a year since I started sitting in our group. Just wanted to echo your comment - its very comforting to see some familiar faces every morning and certainly helps support me and keep me accountable to my own practice. Thank you again for taking the time to respond, I appreciate you!

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

[Jundo]

Benjamin,

I just want to second what folks have written here. First, Zen practice can go hand-in-hand with therapy with a mental health professional for these issues. Also, do as the mental health professional guides with regard to meditation, and only do it if they believe it is good for you.

If you have an attack during sitting, there are a couple of options. First, you can try just to observe the attack and the emotions like someone watching objectively at a distance, like an audience member just watching what they know is a show. See if you can put a little space between you and the event, telling yourself gently, "Oh, this is just my brain putting on a little panic theatre right now, it is not how the world needs to be, it shall pass like the weather." Just watch it, let the emotions sweep through, without buying what they are selling.

If you cannot do that, it is fine to break off for a time, and to come back to Zazen another time, when you feel more balanced. When the heart and breathing settle a bit, return to sitting.

Third, between the above two, I agree with Jika's recommendation of something like Kinhin (or Yoga, or just take a walk or do some exercise as a kind of "moving Zen,") but also it is fine in such cases to just use breath following as an anchor, or even sometimes some kind of Mantra meditation as a temporary measure. The Mantra need not be some mystical phrase or the like ("Ommm" or "Ami Dabutsu"), but it can be that or can be just some word or sound which resonates with you, e.g. "Settled" or "Easy" or "Light" ... anything you like. A more directed form of meditation, as Meishin points out, may also be good for you, if your doctor recommends.

When you feel more settled, then return to Just Sitting.

I think my refined question is: has anyone else experienced Zazen to make their anxiety worse, and what did you do/what helped?

Yes, it can make it worse sometimes temporarily. In the quite space of sitting, when we don't have distractions (work, doing tasks, internet), things can well up from deep down. However, it is only passing weather.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Jundo]

Hi Matt,

most of the time that this has happened to me it's been during rather intense sesshins (although sometimes it would happen just at home)....in my case, some of the rounds of sitting were extremely painful and so I actually felt a little bit traumatised and afraid to sit again. This understandably led to a anxious reaction....

moreover, my symptoms extended past anxiety and there were times when I would have diagnosed myself with mild psychosis.... and it definitely seemed that the long hours of sitting triggered it.... But what is less clear is whether it was causing it or whether it was releasing it and making me feel better afterward, which also seem to be the case....

Intense sitting for long periods can trigger some people. Generally, our way of sitting Shikantaza is gentle, and is not meant to be intense. Even when we sit long periods, it should be with an attitude of gentle ease. Some of the Rinzai, Goenka and Mahasi Sayadaw Vipassana, Tibetan and other kinds of meditation can be highly intense and focus on unusual degrees of silence, focusing and concentration, and might be especially triggering to the sensitive. Shikantaza is a grand letting go and relaxing of effort, so should avoid much of that danger.

Even so, I would encourage long sitting with a teacher and group of people present. Even our 2-Day Rohatsu Retreat which is coming up has this guidance:

OF COURSE, EVERYTHING IN MODERATION ... if the sitting ever feels too much, be sure to walk lots and lots of Kinhin (even if during a sitting period). And if the whole retreat becomes too much, or you feel ill, you may slow down ... , spread things out, shorten the sittings ... or STOP! Be sure that you have someone close by whom you can call, or who can check on you from time to time. If there is any question about health, do not take any chances! .

But I have never had a report of any serious issue coming up for someone during Shikantaza in all these years. It is very gentle sitting. The silence and stillness can sometimes let emotions and old memories wallow up from deep down, but they pass like the weather.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Jundo]

My experience has been (over the course of several years of regular practice) is that after a while, I stopped feeling any particular way about being anxious, emotional etc. I’ve sat scared. I’ve sat angry. I’ve sat with tears streaming down my face. In the end, I was just sitting, scared, angry, or with tears streaming down my face. That’s just how it was that day, and it’s of no particular importance. (Of course sometimes all is peace and joy too!) I learned that I am not my thoughts and feelings. Sometimes, I feel as though I’m sitting in the eye of a storm, with all of life swirling around me and I, in the center, stillness.

Lovely.

[Jundo]

I think it’s extremely dangerous to do Zen. It has similarities to therapies but that’s about it. For example, CBT is science based and Zen is not. Zen has nothing practical but nonsense. That is why people can sit for years and never have a breakthrough, it takes five years to have one breakthrough that you could get with one ACT exercise, for example. It is why, when that lady lost her husband she stopped Zazen. No one gives practical advice. It is also why Zen is rife with sexual abuse and why they were kamikazes in WWII. Don’t give me any of that ‘no true Scotsman fallacy’ crap. I’m done with it. People just sit around without doing anything practical. This has an extremely anti-therapy bent and thus an anti-science bent. It’s nonsense. We learn from our expanding knowledge of science, not Stone Age religions. It’s funny because Jundo claims to love science. What a joke. Wearing a dress and a bib doesn’t make someone special. Those old Japanese sexual abusers were more Zen than Jundo. No true Scotsman. Zen is pre Socratic “philosophy” like the Milesians. I’m not shy about calling crap what it is.

Having a bad day?

I will just say that this is not my experience, and that Zazen and traditional mental health therapies can go hand in hand for those who need.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Benjamin Gieseke]

Benjamin,

I just want to second what folks have written here. First, Zen practice can go hand-in-hand with therapy with a mental health professional for these issues. Also, do as the mental health professional guides with regard to meditation, and only do it if they believe it is good for you.

If you have an attack during sitting, there are a couple of options. First, you can try just to observe the attack and the emotions like someone watching objectively at a distance, like an audience member just watching what they know is a show. See if you can put a little space between you and the event, telling yourself gently, "Oh, this is just my brain putting on a little panic theatre right now, it is not how the world needs to be, it shall pass like the weather." Just watch it, let the emotions sweep through, without buying what they are selling.

If you cannot do that, it is fine to break off for a time, and to come back to Zazen another time, when you feel more balanced. When the heart and breathing settle a bit, return to sitting.

Third, between the above two, I agree with Jika's recommendation of something like Kinhin (or Yoga, or just take a walk or do some exercise as a kind of "moving Zen,") but also it is fine in such cases to just use breath following as an anchor, or even sometimes some kind of Mantra meditation as a temporary measure. The Mantra need not be some mystical phrase or the like ("Ommm" or "Ami Dabutsu"), but it can be that or can be just some word or sound which resonates with you, e.g. "Settled" or "Easy" or "Light" ... anything you like. A more directed form of meditation, as Meishin points out, may also be good for you, if your doctor recommends.

When you feel more settled, then return to Just Sitting.



Yes, it can make it worse sometimes temporarily. In the quite space of sitting, when we don't have distractions (work, doing tasks, internet), things can well up from deep down. However, it is only passing weather.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

Thank you, Jundo! This seems very sensible and applicable advice, I appreciate your guidance. I will say in the days after I made the initial post it became clear that there were issues coming up that I wasn't dealing with well, but I kept up practicing on the cushion and was able to observe those issues relaxing and quieting and felt I could approach Zazen and my anxiety with more clarity. I feel hopeful that I have a better mindset for the next time something comes up.

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

[Tom A.]

No regrets. I’m tired of trying to understand what fish swimming and birds flying has to do with zen meditation. Also, I looked and nowhere does Dogen say that the universe is a dance. Isn’t it interesting how Theravada and Mahayana are completely different. It is a sign they are not based on reason and evidence. Dogen reminds me of Jordan Peterson’s postmodern nonsense. Also, “mindfulness” is very helpful in a therapeutic perspective and isn’t “just a way to make you subservient to corporations and a ‘better worker.’” Though it’s practical so it could make you a better worker. In CBT, mindfulness is a process of evaluating and re-evaluating present moment experience and behavior. It consists of specific skills. It isn’t sitting like a log like in zen meditation. I bet you Jundo believes in married bachelors. And again, sitting around confused with a weird name, dress, and bib doesn’t make you special. Humble yourselves you arrogant fucks. Whenever you talk about anxiety, you are talking about psychology. It would be wise to seek out evidence based solutions. Zen meditation is like injecting yourself with bleach or ivermectin instead of taking the Covid vaccine. Zen is a poor imitation.

[Tokan]

No regrets. I’m tired of trying to understand what fish swimming and birds flying has to do with zen meditation. Also, I looked and nowhere does Dogen say that the universe is a dance. Isn’t it interesting how Theravada and Mahayana are completely different. It is a sign they are not based on reason and evidence. Dogen reminds me of Jordan Peterson’s postmodern nonsense. Also, “mindfulness” is very helpful in a therapeutic perspective and isn’t “just a way to make you subservient to corporations and a ‘better worker.’” Though it’s practical so it could make you a better worker. In CBT, mindfulness is a process of evaluating and re-evaluating present moment experience and behavior. It consists of specific skills. It isn’t sitting like a log like in zen meditation. I bet you Jundo believes in married bachelors. And again, sitting around confused with a weird name, dress, and bib doesn’t make you special. Humble yourselves you arrogant fucks.

Hi Tom

I'm presuming you won't be staying at Treeleaf from the nature of your comments. I would not seek for a second to try and change your views, they are yours and that is that. However, the one thing I will say is that neither in Zen not CBT is it okay to be abusive towards others. Sometimes, it is better to bow (or not bow) out gracefully rather than leave with bitterness. How Zen teachers, whether Dogen or Jundo, see the world, is just another view of reality, along with all the other views of reality out there. We choose to learn from these teachers but it is, of course, not everyone's cup of tea. If this place is not for you, please leave quietly with a friendly wave, as we offer you a friendly wave goodbye to seek your own path if that is your preference.

Best wishes and gassho

Tokan

Not a zen teacher, just a monk chopping wood and carrying water, so take what I say with a grain of salt - except the bit about being abusive, we can all call each other on that one.

[Bion]

No regrets. I’m tired of trying to understand what fish swimming and birds flying has to do with zen meditation. Also, I looked and nowhere does Dogen say that the universe is a dance. Isn’t it interesting how Theravada and Mahayana are completely different. It is a sign they are not based on reason and evidence. Dogen reminds me of Jordan Peterson’s postmodern nonsense. Also, “mindfulness” is very helpful in a therapeutic perspective and isn’t “just a way to make you subservient to corporations and a ‘better worker.’” Though it’s practical so it could make you a better worker. In CBT, mindfulness is a process of evaluating and re-evaluating present moment experience and behavior. It consists of specific skills. It isn’t sitting like a log like in zen meditation. I bet you Jundo believes in married bachelors. And again, sitting around confused with a weird name, dress, and bib doesn’t make you special. Humble yourselves you arrogant fucks. Whenever you talk about anxiety, you are talking about psychology. It would be wise to seek out evidence based solutions. Zen meditation is like injecting yourself with bleach or ivermectin instead of taking the Covid vaccine. Zen is a poor imitation.

Hiya Tom! So, are you saying you're tired of Soto Zen, of Zen, of Jundo, of all of us? Has something in particular happened here at Treeleaf that has angered you?

Gassho
sat lah

[Tom A.]

Hiya Tom! So, are you saying you're tired of Soto Zen, of Zen, of Jundo, of all of us? Has something in particular happened here at Treeleaf that has angered you?

Gassho
sat lah

Dogen could have put his energy elsewhere (like coming up with the scientific method like they did in the near east in the 1200s, I think) He did a little too much navel gazing, and it shows in the shit he wiped onto paper.

[Bion]

Dogen could have put his energy elsewhere (like coming up with the scientific method like they did in the near east in the 1200s, I think) He did a little too much navel gazing, and it shows in the shit he wiped onto paper.

Ah, I see. Well, there's not much to do about that, except maybe not read his work. I don't read books about bitcoin or the law of attraction, or cars, because it is not something that interests me. Is there any other side of buddhism that makes more sense to you? I'm curious if this is about buddhism in general or specifically Dogen Zenji.

Gassho
sat lah

[Tom A.]

https://youtu.be/M754Yl6wiYw?si=h7MYiBQ0OeIvNDEe

[Tom A.]

I’m sorry to say but what you guys are selling has a price: sitting when you could do something that you value more. The anti-psychiatry movement that started in the 1960s (not to be confused with the earlier anti-psychoanalysis anti-psychiatry movement) is alive and well. There are mysteries but people tend to underestimate what is known in a field. Whenever a field is under the public microscope it can look like experts don’t agree on anything. Look at bromatology (food science). It’s because of the questioning nature of science (we don’t see a large anti-endocrinology movement, it’s not under the microscope) Eastern medicine is a bedfellow of anti-psychiatry.

[Guest]

I’m sorry to say but what you guys are selling has a price: sitting when you could do something that you value more. The anti-psychiatry movement that started in the 1960s (not to be confused with the earlier anti-psychoanalysis anti-psychiatry movement) is alive and well. There are mysteries but people tend to underestimate what is known in a field. Whenever a field is under the public microscope it can look like experts don’t agree on anything. Look at bromatology (food science). It’s because of the questioning nature of science (we don’t see a large anti-endocrinology movement, it’s not under the microscope) Eastern medicine is a bedfellow of anti-psychiatry.

I am new here, so my opinions are only my own. But this particular group is in no way anti-science. Jundo posts science news all the time. His book "Future Buddha" is science based. We don't practice "Eastern medicine" here either. So you're off track with those criticisms as far as I can see.

Also, I was a victim of abuse by more than one psychiatrist and almost died due to their negligence. So, "science" is not always correct and doctors are not always unbiased in their care. It is good to be skeptical and questioning in all areas as I found out the hard way.

Your comments are offensive to me personally, but like I said I am new here and only speak for myself. Why come into a religious space only to insult the practitioners of that religion?

This group of people is one of the most accepting and supportive I have ever known in my 52 years. So maybe give folks a chance. It seems you're angry and suffering, I hope you find happiness and peace.

Gassho,
Paco
sat/lah