Zazen and Anxiety

[Paco]

I’m sorry to say but what you guys are selling has a price: sitting when you could do something that you value more. The anti-psychiatry movement that started in the 1960s (not to be confused with the earlier anti-psychoanalysis anti-psychiatry movement) is alive and well. There are mysteries but people tend to underestimate what is known in a field. Whenever a field is under the public microscope it can look like experts don’t agree on anything. Look at bromatology (food science). It’s because of the questioning nature of science (we don’t see a large anti-endocrinology movement, it’s not under the microscope) Eastern medicine is a bedfellow of anti-psychiatry.

I am new here, so my opinions are only my own. But this particular group is in no way anti-science. Jundo posts science news all the time. His book "Future Buddha" is science based. We don't practice "Eastern medicine" here either. So you're off track with those criticisms as far as I can see.

Also, I was a victim of abuse by more than one psychiatrist and almost died due to their negligence. So, "science" is not always correct and doctors are not always unbiased in their care. It is good to be skeptical and questioning in all areas as I found out the hard way.

Your comments are offensive to me personally, but like I said I am new here and only speak for myself. Why come into a religious space only to insult the practitioners of that religion?

This group of people is one of the most accepting and supportive I have ever known in my 52 years. So maybe give folks a chance. It seems you're angry and suffering, I hope you find happiness and peace.

Gassho,
Paco
sat/lah

[Koushi]

I’m sorry to say but what you guys are selling has a price: sitting when you could do something that you value more. The anti-psychiatry movement that started in the 1960s (not to be confused with the earlier anti-psychoanalysis anti-psychiatry movement) is alive and well. There are mysteries but people tend to underestimate what is known in a field. Whenever a field is under the public microscope it can look like experts don’t agree on anything. Look at bromatology (food science). It’s because of the questioning nature of science (we don’t see a large anti-endocrinology movement, it’s not under the microscope) Eastern medicine is a bedfellow of anti-psychiatry.

Hi Tom,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’d like to clarify a few things. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “what you guys are selling has a price.” At Treeleaf, our stance is that if someone requires therapy, medication, or professional services, they should absolutely pursue those—sometimes even before considering Zazen. Sitting is not a substitute for medical or psychological treatment; it’s not a cure for conditions like cancer, PTSD, anxiety, or any other mental or physical challenges.

What Zazen offers is a space to sit with life as it is, without trying to fix or escape it. For example, as someone with PTSD and alcoholism, I don’t turn to Zazen expecting these conditions to disappear. But in those 25–50 minutes a day I sit (or even just a few seconds if that’s what’s possible), I can meet whatever arises—desires, feelings, cravings, or discomfort—and allow it to simply be. What arises, arises; what falls away, falls away.

Many of our priests and practitioners, myself included, require therapy, medication, or other necessary interventions for mental or chronic conditions. Zen practice, and particularly shikantaza, is about sitting with what-is, moment by moment. Then, when the bell rings, we step up to meet the responsibilities and actions required in our lives. Especially those that require medical and other services.

Lastly, while open discussion and diverse perspectives are welcome, I kindly ask that we be considerate of others and keep our language and tone constructive and less-charged. This is less about avoiding offense and more about fostering a space where meaningful dialogue can happen without unnecessary friction.

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Jundo]

Hi,

Other folks have said things better than me, so I just thank Tokan, Bion, Paco and Koushi for their comments. I agree with what you all said to Tom.

I will just add a couple of things that others did not mention:

On the "bib and robes," that we do that out of respect for tradition and "roots," like a judge wears the black robes, or those funny hats at graduation. It is fine to practice in street clothes. Nishijima Roshi sometimes dressed in formal Chinese robes, but also said that they are not needed. The Kesa, however, we take as a symbol of something. It is a bit like a photo of your mother ... just chemicals on a piece of paper or bit of cloth, but it means something if the heart finds meaning there, and you hang it on the wall and try to treat it with respect. A flag or a policeman's uniform or a doctor's white coat or your child's baby shoes are just the same ... items of cloth and such that we find very special meaning in. It is fine if you do not find meaning there. To us, the Kesa is a "formless field of benefaction" embodying the Buddha's Teachings. Not unlike how that other religion sticks two pieces of wood together and finds meaning.

I am a Zappa fan too, so I appreciate that.

The role of the Zen masters (with a few exceptions of Zen folks who were true nationalists) in WWII has been very much exaggerated in those "Zen at War" books written by a guy with a bit of a politcal agenda (It is not just me who says so: http://sweepingzen.com/zen-war-autho...r-jundo-cohen/ ). Most Zen folks took a "support the troops" attitude, and the vast majority either did not know much about the war besides what they were being told in the government controlled press, or thought the war foolish and tragic but did not dare open their mouth lest they be immediately put in political prison. I write about that sometimes. Kodo Sawaki, Nishijima's first teacher, was such a "support the troops in the foolish war" types.

Anyway, what set this off, Tom? Something happen? Something must have triggered the rant, no?

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[Tom A.]

Telling people they have libertarian free will is not good. It leads to moralization. Dogen says some nonsense like “you are on the knifes edge.” That’s not even wrong. I have a book dictated to me by Lord Spanky and in it, it says pee is stored in the balls. So pee is stored in the balls. There its settled. Never mind that you can do simple experiments that will show that determinism is the parsimonious explanation. I can’t believe that people sit for years and never realize it. You can easily make an inductive argument for determinism, you can’t for free will no matter how many donkeys and bails of hay you talk about. Jundo thinks you have “insect brains.” Moralizing “just do this” and “just do that” is not practical. Zazen isn’t psychiatry? I would say it is. It is to psychiatry what astrology is to astronomy. It’s in the pseudoscience camp even though it doesn’t claim to be science. Astrology doesn’t either. It’s just a bunch of untestable nonsense claims. It is bad psychiatry. I am not you and you are not me. Jundo is judgmental because he takes his anecdotes and applies them to other people because of the delusion that we are all the same.

[Green Ben]

Tom A., my friend, are you OK?

Are you currently experiencing intense anxiety, and feel this group is not providing you the attention and care you need?

Because a little over a week ago, your take on this topic was this:

It is natural to give power to our uncomfortable thoughts and struggle to get rid of uncomfortable emotions. We naturally do this. Worry and anxiety can give the illusion we are solving a problem when in reality we are just worried and anxious. Various exercises and techniques can can work moderately well when done in moderation but in Zazen we drop all that, open the hand of thought, and thoughts sometimes lose their power, we see the silver lining in the clouds and the sky opens and the sun shines beyond all comparisons! It beats trying to avoid and wrestle with difficult emotions.

Four days later you post this, which is basically aligned with the above:

For the record, I also think a professional opinion about mental health is important. I am in no way promoting “spiritual bypassing.” Please seek help if you are struggling.

That being said, I’m guessing that exposure to difficult thoughts and emotions while staying open and centered as the clouds and storms float by, does something psychologically positive. I don’t know and I don’t need to know. This is a religion and not psychology.

My question is, when I got my mental health worked out, then what? Life is still painful, I still suffer, I still get anxious, and sometimes I still have panic attacks and meltdowns. Charlotte Beck has a helpful metaphor that I tweaked a little: You are flying a glider in a hurricane, and you naturally want to get to the calm center. The only problem is that life is the hurricane and when you get to the calm center, it is that blank space that Jundo recently talked about where I would use Zazen to paint myself into a corner and my life got smaller and smaller. Life is in the hurricane, and we are the hurricane. Now, I try to find the calm center inside myself instead of seeking outward to get to the illusory calm center outside of myself where nothing matters, if that makes sense.

The greatest “benefit” I have experienced is the same as Chikyō, I can be anxious or depressed AND still love and live life.

And then two later you posted this:

I think it’s extremely dangerous to do Zen. It has similarities to therapies but that’s about it. For example, CBT is science based and Zen is not. Zen has nothing practical but nonsense. That is why people can sit for years and never have a breakthrough, it takes five years to have one breakthrough that you could get with one ACT exercise, for example. It is why, when that lady lost her husband she stopped Zazen. No one gives practical advice. It is also why Zen is rife with sexual abuse and why they were kamikazes in WWII. Don’t give me any of that ‘no true Scotsman fallacy’ crap. I’m done with it. People just sit around without doing anything practical. This has an extremely anti-therapy bent and thus an anti-science bent. It’s nonsense. We learn from our expanding knowledge of science, not Stone Age religions. It’s funny because Jundo claims to love science. What a joke. Wearing a dress and a bib doesn’t make someone special. Those old Japanese sexual abusers were more Zen than Jundo. No true Scotsman. Zen is pre Socratic “philosophy” like the Milesians. I’m not shy about calling crap what it is.

All of your posts since then have been angry, accusatory, and inflammatory. And in complete contradiction to your earlier posts. Did something major happen in your life in the last week, that we might not know about?

Looking at your latest posts in this thread, one might think you are just trolling. But the complete 180 turn in just a few days is concerning to me.

Maybe this is not the place for you, or the path for you, but whatever is troubling you, I hope you find someone you can talk to about it.

With all due respect, based on the extreme shift I see in your views, you would be better served talking to a mental health professional, than yelling at monks.

Truly, I hope you can find help with what is troubling you, and ultimately find peace.

Gassho

stlah