Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

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  • Chikyou
    Member
    • May 2022
    • 633

    I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

    Gassho
    SatToday

    -Kelly
    Chikyō 知鏡
    (KellyLM)

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40325

      Originally posted by KellyLM
      I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

      Gassho
      SatToday

      -Kelly
      Hi Kelly,

      Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

      In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

      In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

      There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

      All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

      Let me know if you have more questions.

      Gassho, Jundo

      STLah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Chikyou
        Member
        • May 2022
        • 633

        Originally posted by Jundo
        Hi Kelly,

        Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

        In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

        In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

        There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

        All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

        Let me know if you have more questions.

        Gassho, Jundo

        STLah
        Thank you for your answer!

        To check my understanding: Zazen is the practice overall, and shikantaza is the specific type of zazen that we practice, do I understand correctly?

        Gassho
        SatToday

        -Kelly
        Chikyō 知鏡
        (KellyLM)

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40325

          That is correct, Kelly.

          And, of course, there are many kinds of "meditation" in the world, of which Zazen is just one flavor.

          Gassho, Jundo

          STLah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Guest

            Originally posted by Jundo
            Hi Kelly,

            Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

            In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

            In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

            There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

            All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

            Let me know if you have more questions.

            Gassho, Jundo

            STLah
            Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

            Gassho,

            Wondo

            Sat Today/LAH
            Last edited by Guest; 05-09-2022, 12:15 PM.

            Comment

            • Chikyou
              Member
              • May 2022
              • 633

              Originally posted by Wondo
              Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

              Gassho,

              Wondo

              Sat Today/LAH
              This is similar to my experience as well; I have tried various forms of meditation (not Zazen, but several attempts at other forms of meditation, most recently western "mindfulness", over the years) and none of it really made much sense to me. When I tried Shikantaza, it was like a light finally turned on. It just makes sense in a way nothing else has.

              Gassho
              SatToday

              -Kelly
              Chikyō 知鏡
              (KellyLM)

              Comment

              • Chikyou
                Member
                • May 2022
                • 633

                I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

                Gassho
                SatToday
                -Kelly
                Chikyō 知鏡
                (KellyLM)

                Comment

                • Tomás ESP
                  Member
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 575

                  Originally posted by KellyLM
                  I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

                  Gassho
                  SatToday
                  -Kelly
                  Thank you for sharing Kelly, I am glad you enjoyed it

                  Gassho, Tomás
                  Sat&LaH

                  Comment

                  • Chikyou
                    Member
                    • May 2022
                    • 633

                    I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

                    Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

                    Gassho,
                    SatToday
                    -Kelly
                    Chikyō 知鏡
                    (KellyLM)

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40325

                      Originally posted by KellyLM
                      I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

                      Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

                      Gassho,
                      SatToday
                      -Kelly
                      Hi Kelly,

                      Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

                      Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

                      Gassho, Jundo

                      STLah
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Chikyou
                        Member
                        • May 2022
                        • 633

                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        Hi Kelly,

                        Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

                        Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

                        Gassho, Jundo

                        STLah

                        Thank you Jundo. I suspected as much; I have been doing my best to follow each teaching as I receive it, and I suspect that I will find balance somewhere including all of them with practice.

                        Love the cat by the way!

                        Gassho,
                        SatToday

                        -Kelly
                        Chikyō 知鏡
                        (KellyLM)

                        Comment

                        • Mason
                          Member
                          • Apr 2022
                          • 4

                          I’ve been watching one video a day before my morning Zazen and I just finished the final beginner’s video this morning. For now I have no questions that haven’t already been asked in this thread, but I just wanted to express my gratitude for this wonderful resource. They’ve been very very helpful, so thank you Jundo!

                          Gassho,
                          Mason
                          Sat

                          Comment

                          • Tai Shi
                            Member
                            • Oct 2014
                            • 3415

                            I visit at least one sitting session with Treeleaf folks every day. Soon I will start Zazenkai because I am well enough. For me Treeleaf has become sitting.
                            Gassho
                            sat/ lah


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                            Peaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆

                            Comment

                            • Artien
                              Member
                              • Jun 2022
                              • 56

                              After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

                              Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

                              But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

                              Sorry for running long.

                              Gassho,

                              Artien
                              SatToday
                              Last edited by Artien; 06-27-2022, 07:47 AM.

                              Comment

                              • Bion
                                Treeleaf Unsui
                                • Aug 2020
                                • 4549

                                Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

                                Originally posted by Artien
                                After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

                                Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

                                But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

                                Sorry for running long.

                                Gassho,

                                Artien
                                SatToday
                                I won’t dare to try and explain anything as if it was doctrine.. I will say just that TO ME, the two are tied into each other.. “Watching clouds” requires an observer and the object observed, so we operate in a realm of separation: I watch “my own” thoughts and don’t interact with them, as if thoughts and observer were distinct. It is an action I take .. The mirror analogy, for me is the unification of that imaginary separation. The mirror is the space in which clouds passing by are reflected.. clouds don’t disturb the mirror, mirror doesn’t stop clouds, clouds and mirror exist as each other. That’s the nature of mind, free of divisions and self. So, I guess I understand it, in few words as : one is a doing and the other is being.
                                I’m sure you’ll get a proper and accurate reply soon enough. This is just my incomplete ideas, so don’t give them too much credit, please!
                                Sorry, I tried to be brief but still ran long.

                                [emoji1374] Sat Today
                                Last edited by Bion; 06-27-2022, 11:42 AM.
                                "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

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