Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Jundo]

Dont get rebirth for one I see no evidence of it nor what it is that is thats reborn. Unless ideas are carried over.

Hi Again,

Yes, I also do not care about, or believe too much, in overly literal views of some rebirth. On the other hand, I see that we are reborn as all things, and all things as us ... every blade of grass, star, baby everywhere ...

And our actions have effects, for good and bad ... both on our own life now, those around us, and even people far away or in the future in this interconnected world.

We have some discussion here:

Buddha-Basics (Part XV) — Karma

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7722-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-XVI%29-%C2%97-Rebirth

Buddha-Basics (Part XVI) — Rebirth?

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7722-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-XVI%29-%C2%97-Rebirth

I like to say:

But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLah

[Houzan]

Thank you for this series. Clarified many points for me.


Michael
SatToday LaH

[WorkerB]

Thank you for the Zazen for Beginners series. I'm going to type each of the thoughts for today that concluded each video, and will tuck a small print of each randomly in the pages of my daily planner.

Thank you for sharing these lessons!

Gassho,
b.

Sat today

[autolyse]

Thank you for the post on pain. It's something I have been sitting with (no pun intended : ) ), and trying to figure out how to live with my chronic back pain in my practice. I appreciated that you acknowledged the feeling one can have when they see everyone seated so perfectly, and for some with physical injuries or limitations, it may not be possible to appear this way. Just that acknowledgement alone was really helpful.

Sat today


Autolyse

[autolyse]

Oh I enjoyed that video so much! Thank you! I had never seen it.

As a mother of very young children, sometimes there is so much... noise. Today I will begin listening differently, and perhaps hearing more of the sound.

Thank you.
Sat today

[Jundo]

Thank you for the post on pain. It's something I have been sitting with (no pun intended : ) ), and trying to figure out how to live with my chronic back pain in my practice. I appreciated that you acknowledged the feeling one can have when they see everyone seated so perfectly, and for some with physical injuries or limitations, it may not be possible to appear this way. Just that acknowledgement alone was really helpful.

Sat today


Autolyse

This may help as well ...

Zen Practice with Physical Illness or Disability

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15681-Zen-Practice-with-Physical-Illness-or-Disability

We all "sit" as our body needs to "sit." Many fine ways to "sit."

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Guest]

Regarding video 4, this non-seeking is a theme that comes up a lot in more advanced spiritual systems, yet getting to that point in oneself often requires a lot of seeking, joining groups, going through rituals and formalities, and then engaging in practices such as zazen, which are seemingly designed to negate the need to seek and belong, or to go through such things in the first place. It makes me wonder if, by seeking to become a Buddhist and engage in the tradition, beyond just sitting, is itself a case of the dog chasing it's own tail?
In short, how much of the ritual, formality, robes, bowls and the rest, is scaffolding at best, and at worst a net or a distraction to the beginner?

[Jundo]

Regarding video 4, this non-seeking is a theme that comes up a lot in more advanced spiritual systems, yet getting to that point in oneself often requires a lot of seeking, joining groups, going through rituals and formalities, and then engaging in practices such as zazen, which are seemingly designed to negate the need to seek and belong, or to go through such things in the first place. It makes me wonder if, by seeking to become a Buddhist and engage in the tradition, beyond just sitting, is itself a case of the dog chasing it's own tail?
In short, how much of the ritual, formality, robes, bowls and the rest, is scaffolding at best, and at worst a net or a distraction to the beginner?

Well, yes, we sometimes have to run run run on the treadmill in order to realize this "no where in need of going" message.

But remember that our practice is not really just putting down the running and effort. We don't simply give up, drop all effort, fail to move and stop living, planning, dreaming ... but neither are we prisoners of desires, goals, never resting and lost in future worries and dreams. Rather, it is discovering that moving and stillness, diligent effort and "nothing lacking, nothing in need of doing" are both so at once, like two sides of a no-sided coin.

As to the traditional elements, some folks see the wisdom and beauty there, some folks may find it a distraction. For me, some of the things are just decorations or "Japanese culture" (like tatami mats and shoji screens, which I only have because I happen to live in Japan in a Japanese house.) But other traditional practices ... like Robe sewing, Oryoki and Chanting ... are powerful and filled with wisdom and lessons to embody.

Since a part of our practice is to put down "likes and dislikes" and personal preferences, the traditional and other aspects of Zen practice that we find annoying can actually also become a lesson in doing them anyway with acceptance and equanimity beyond "like and dislike." An example for me is doing full prostrations in front of a Altar, which somehow goes against my American Yankee "handshake" values. Nonetheless, I bow in humility just for that reason, dropping the resistance.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

Well, yes, we sometimes have to run run run on the treadmill in order to realize this "no where in need of going" message.

But remember that our practice is not really just putting down the running and effort. We don't simply give up, drop all effort, fail to move and stop living, planning, dreaming ... but neither are we prisoners of desires, goals, never resting and lost in future worries and dreams. Rather, it is discovering that moving and stillness, diligent effort and "nothing lacking, nothing in need of doing" are both so at once, like two sides of a no-sided coin.

As to the traditional elements, some folks see the wisdom and beauty there, some folks may find it a distraction. For me, some of the things are just decorations or "Japanese culture" (like tatami mats and shoji screens, which I only have because I happen to live in Japan in a Japanese house.) But other traditional practices ... like Robe sewing, Oryoki and Chanting ... are powerful and filled with wisdom and lessons to embody.

Since a part of our practice is to put down "likes and dislikes" and personal preferences, the traditional and other aspects of Zen practice that we find annoying can actually also become a lesson in doing them anyway with acceptance and equanimity beyond "like and dislike." An example for me is doing full prostrations in front of a Altar, which somehow goes against my American Yankee "handshake" values. Nonetheless, I bow in humility just for that reason, dropping the resistance.

Gassho, J

stlah

To be fair I'm actually pretty used to the accoutrements of Japanese culture, having practiced Aikido for many years, wearing a Hakama and dogi, bowing and using Japanese terminology and manners are second nature by this point so certainly not something I find annoying, I quite like the aesthetic and it does put one in the frame of mind (can't do much else but practice when dressed like that!) As for bowing, I recall Shunryu Suzuki talking about bowing, bowing to statues, cats, anything really, not as a mark of both respect and humility, so not a problem there for me at all.

I guess that for me, as someone who's looked into a number of traditions, Western and Eastern (with Zen always in the background, I read Suzuki when I was a teenager), what I have noticed is that people talk about none of it being necessary, yet doing it anyway. It's a bit like the Western mystery traditions where the initiate was finally, after many years of practice and testing, brought before the Holy of Holies, and showed an empty shrine (I always wondered if the mirror in a Shinto shrine might suggest something similar).

I suppose my issue is, if anything, an awareness that I like these things too much, even while I'm aware that they are non-essentials, yet my mind still likes them and I do have a few bits of paraphernalia, beads, bells, the rest, but don't want to just be a plastic Buddhist. Learning to live with this paradox and loosen my mental hand so to speak, rather than worrying about the things I'm grasping at/or rejecting, could as you say become a practice of acceptance and equanimity.

Gassho,

ps: what does stlah mean?

[Jundo]

ps: what does stlah mean?

Oh, stlah is our crazy little "tradition" around this Sangha ...

You are still new here, so don't really need to be concerned until more settled in, after a few month. However, "st/sat/sattoday" is this ...

SatToday - Make sure you have SAT before joining in forum CHAT!

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-SatToday-Make-sure-you-have-SAT-before-joining-in-forum-CHAT%21

And "LAH/led-a-hand" is optional "good deed a day" program we have here

A TREELEAF PROJECT with EVERYONE’S PARTICIPATION REQUESTED: “LAH” (Lend A Hand)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15314-A-TREELEAF-PROJECT-with-EVERYONE%C2%92S-PARTICIPATION-REQUESTED-%C2%93LAH%C2%94-%28Lend-A-Hand%29

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

Oh, stlah is our crazy little "tradition" around this Sangha ...

You are still new here, so don't really need to be concerned until more settled in, after a few month. However, "st/sat/sattoday" is this ...

Sure, I can see the point of that, we can all use a bit of encouragement from time to time.

sttdy

[Erinis]

Listened the lesson - acceptance without acceptance - and though it's interesting I am quite confused, it seems that one statement goes against the other, what am I missing?
As I understand it is that advanced person who sitting in Zazen shouldn't have been crying, because although he/she accept the situation and is in peace with it, there is still an attachment
to that particular situation, otherwise why would one cry. Although I don't like the idea of numbness of feelings, I still have problem to grasp it.

In fact, the whole Zen puzzle me, until quite recently I had idea what Zen is all about (and thought I know I shouldn't have fix myself to idea, I need to know what it is),
but that was before I start reading - zen mind beginner's mind and Shobogenzo. Now I feel I don't understand a thing I always thought that Zen is about present moment, but not sure about it now.
I had also a hard time explaining to family what is Zen, so I said it's unexplainable, that with each attempt to grasp it you're losing it, and it's basically about one's practice and experience.
How would you explain to stranger what is Zen about?

Erinis
Sat today
Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi Erinis,

Listened the lesson - acceptance without acceptance - and though it's interesting I am quite confused, it seems that one statement goes against the other, what am I missing?
As I understand it is that advanced person who sitting in Zazen shouldn't have been crying, because although he/she accept the situation and is in peace with it, there is still an attachment
to that particular situation, otherwise why would one cry. Although I don't like the idea of numbness of feelings, I still have problem to grasp it.

Zen Wisdom can be like seeing life out of two eyes, each eye seeing their own way, but when both eyes are open there is clarity.

For example, out of one eye, we cry in times of sadness: I believe, based on their poetry and such, that the old Zen Masters found that there are times to cry, and that is good and human. For example, Master Dogen himself wrote this on the death of one of his priest disciples:

Dharma Hall Discourse on Behalf of the Deceased Head Monk Sokai

... How profusely the cloud and water monks have been crying! Although I see you [Sokai] down to the [ocean] bottom, tears fill my breast like an overflowing lake. ...


I would not want to live as a human being who could not cry. However, neither do I want to be a prisoner of depression, wallowing in grief. There is a time to cry, a time to smile too. Cry, grieve as is natural and human, but also know balance and moderation in life.

HOWEVER, out of the other eye, Zen folks do not even quite believe in death and loss! All is flowing, such that, though the waves on the sea rise and fall, the sea itself remains without losing a single drop! We are the waves, but also we are the seas' flowing. In this eye, there is radical Peace and Equinimity, Completeness, never loss.

Then, open BOTH EYES AT ONCE AS ONE, and this is a Buddha's Eye! There is loss, yet no loss ... death yet no death ... Peace even amid the chaos and sadness. Acceptance and Not Accepting as one.

In fact, the whole Zen puzzle me, until quite recently I had idea what Zen is all about (and thought I know I shouldn't have fix myself to idea, I need to know what it is),
but that was before I start reading - zen mind beginner's mind and Shobogenzo. Now I feel I don't understand a thing I always thought that Zen is about present moment, but not sure about it now.
I had also a hard time explaining to family what is Zen, so I said it's unexplainable, that with each attempt to grasp it you're losing it, and it's basically about one's practice and experience.
How would you explain to stranger what is Zen about?

I believe that Zen, like most of the Buddhist path, is about seeing through our feeling of division and separation in life (especially self/other ... me/not me), and finding the radical Wholeness and Flowing (often called "Emptiness," because all the separate people, things and moments are also without separate self-exitance.) Then, realizing this, we return to live in a world of separate people, things and moments, win and lose, birth and death ... but also knowing the flowing Wholeness too that is free of all the friction, division. While alive, we also learn to live gently, freer of excess desires, anger, violence, jealousy and such.

On top of that, Zen is many things, but that is the central issue. It is what Dogen was writing about in all his crazy prose in Shobogenzo, and the heart of "Beginners Mind" too.

I would say that Zen is not so much about just "being in the moment" (although there are time to do so too, such as "when seeing the sunset, just see the sunset," "when drinking tea, just drink tea.") Instead, I would say that Zen teaches more about how to let "each moment be just that particular moment," for example, when sad moment, just let it be sad moment ... happy moment is just happy moment ... all seen with a Buddha's Eye, which is a Joy that sweeps right through all small worldly "happy vs. sad" too.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Tokan]

Listened the lesson - acceptance without acceptance - and though it's interesting I am quite confused, it seems that one statement goes against the other, what am I missing?
As I understand it is that advanced person who sitting in Zazen shouldn't have been crying, because although he/she accept the situation and is in peace with it, there is still an attachment
to that particular situation, otherwise why would one cry. Although I don't like the idea of numbness of feelings, I still have problem to grasp it.

In fact, the whole Zen puzzle me, until quite recently I had idea what Zen is all about (and thought I know I shouldn't have fix myself to idea, I need to know what it is),
but that was before I start reading - zen mind beginner's mind and Shobogenzo. Now I feel I don't understand a thing I always thought that Zen is about present moment, but not sure about it now.
I had also a hard time explaining to family what is Zen, so I said it's unexplainable, that with each attempt to grasp it you're losing it, and it's basically about one's practice and experience.
How would you explain to stranger what is Zen about?

Erinis
Sat today
Gassho

Hi Erinis

I am not a teacher here but I would like to share my experience with you in the hope that it gives you...well, some hope!

Zen often seems paradoxical or contradictory, and that is because we first try to resolve these 'problems' with the discriminating mind. We try to rationalise our way out of a paradox or contradiction. I practiced this for quite some time before I felt the mental tension ease. Through the Zen practice of zazen (just sitting), I found I could both hold and not-hold these positions at the same time without it being a contradiction. For example, a friend died. I had lots of thoughts and emotions, sadness, anger, denial, grief, and all the joy and happy memories of their life and time we had spent together. I cried for the loss of my friend (which might be considered the relative position), but I also understood that each of us will die, no-one fully knows when or how, and that we embrace the rolling moment-to-moment dance of this life with just that tension hovering in the air (the absolute position). So I allowed the grief to be but also allowed the grief to pass. I clung to no emotion, thought or memory tightly, letting them all be and all fade, respecting their place in my life at that time.

I have practiced and studied Zen for many years, you can study it but only through practice do you come to know it, to understand what I have expressed about my own experience above. This is not something you would wish to 'rush' to understand, much like we expect to be experts after three years at university! Progress is rarely linear, and it can be hard to know sometimes just where the hell you are (in terms of progress). This is another reason why we return to the cushion, dropping these concerns as well, dropping all concerns (unless there's a tornado or tsunami heading our way!) My understanding of the present moment awareness is also like this. We can work with the past and future, they are only good or bad if we attach value judgements to them, but (again) we do so with a light touch, so that we can plan a holiday or a new career, to write a shopping list or bucket list. The present moment, to me, is simply where we experience these things as they arrive.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Jundo]

Zen often seems paradoxical or contradictory, and that is because we first try to resolve these 'problems' with the discriminating mind. We try to rationalise our way out of a paradox or contradiction. I practiced this for quite some time before I felt the mental tension ease. Through the Zen practice of zazen (just sitting), I found I could both hold and not-hold these positions at the same time without it being a contradiction. For example, a friend died. I had lots of thoughts and emotions, sadness, anger, denial, grief, and all the joy and happy memories of their life and time we had spent together. I cried for the loss of my friend (which might be considered the relative position), but I also understood that each of us will die, no-one fully knows when or how, and that we embrace the rolling moment-to-moment dance of this life with just that tension hovering in the air (the absolute position). So I allowed the grief to be but also allowed the grief to pass. I clung to no emotion, thought or memory tightly, letting them all be and all fade, respecting their place in my life at that time.

This is lovely.

I would also encourage the knowing of such which is beyond birth and death, friend and self, all separation too. Such knowing also is embodied in sitting.

Gassho, J

stlah