Wow, thanks for that information. I’ve never pondered as to why the mudra is left over right, so that’s good to know. For me it’s always been about respecting the teaching passed down through generations, with no regard for the “benefit” of one over the other: it’s just how we do it.
In reality, I do it cause I have two hands and can sit on two legs, but my zazen, I feel, would be in no way superior to that of someone without arms or legs, who can’t form the mudra.
Thank you for being the benevolent and patient encyclopedia you are [emoji1374] [emoji1374]
Sat Today ( and used too many words.. which I apologize for)
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A traditional point may have been that only a full blown Buddha can sit so ... we are not allowed to.
But here is more on the topic of anti-south paw discrimination that you probably care (or need) to know ...
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In Fukanzazengi, Master Dogen writes ...
Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left hand on your right palm, thumb-tips lightly touching.
A respected Buddhist art historian says:
But does it matter? In some areas of traditional Chinese medicine, some people make a big deal of this (the same prejudice found in the west for the "sinister" left). I would not make a big deal of this. I have heard some other Zen teachers of many years experience commenting on it. Let me briefly quote from the article by the current abbot of Antaiji, Muho Noelke, for those who don't know ...Zenjō-in 禅定印 [meaning “Meditation Mudra”] ... Made by placing both hands in the lap, right on top of left, with palms turned upward and thumbs touching to form a circle. It symbolizes the Buddha in a state of meditation. ... In addition, Zen artwork frequently portrays Shaka (the Historical Buddha) with the ordinary meditation mudra, but the position of both hands is often reversed (left on top of right, not right on top of left). This is called Zenshūyō-no-Shaka (Shaka in the Style of the Zen Sect).
Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more.In the "introduction to Zazen"... Sawaki Roshi [ states that] " ... . First you should know the difference between two ways of sitting: Gômaza, the "posture that subdues demons", and kichijôza, the "auspicious posture". Even in old texts, there is quite some confusion about the two postures. In short, the right side represents the ascending, active (yang) aspect. The left side represents the descending, passive (yin) aspect. When the right foot rests on the left thigh, that represents the ascending activity that subdues the demons (gômaza). When the left foot rests on the right thigh, that is a descending, passive activity which is auspicious (kichijôza).
You might think that this is only true for the half lotus. But that is not the case: In full lotus as well, if you first place your right foot on top of the left thigh, that is called gômaza. Gômaza also means to place the right hand first on the left foot. When the right hand is covered next with the left hand, that settles down the mind. In kichijôza on the other hand, the left foot is placed first on the right thigh (and then the right foot on the left thight) and the left hand is placed on top of the right foot, then the right hand on top of the left hand. That means that we speak of kichijôza in the case of half lotus as Dogen Zenji describes it - left foot placed on right thigh - while we speak of gômaza in the case of the full lotus (with right foot placed on left thigh first, then left foot placed on right thigh)."
Although Sawaki Roshi tries to clear up the confusion with these words, I have doubts that he is successful. It seems strange that Dogen Zenji should recommend kichijôza for half lotus and gômaza for full lotus. Sawaki Roshi does not tell us why we should sit one way in half lotus and the other way in full lotus. It is interesting but even more confusing that Sawaki also speaks about the hands. In the case of the hands, we should have them in the gômaza-posture regardless of half or full lotus - according to Dogen read in the way Sawaki does. I am afraid that Sawaki's way of reading Dogen though is not only confusing, but probably wrong altogether.
Several respected older Western Zen teachers were discussing the article recently, and don't see the difference between left and right. I usually favor the right, as I am right handed. It feels strange for to place the hands, for example, with the left hand on the bottom. However, I do not see any magic property in sitting one way or the other. If something feels strange about one side or the other, it is the same strangeness of a left hander trying to play tennis with a right handed grip and visa versa.
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAHLeave a comment:
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Husband and older daughter are both lefties. [emoji3059]
Gassho, meian stlh
Sent from my SM-G975U using TapatalkLeave a comment:
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Ha! Nice one! Even better then!!! I stand totally corrected!As the father of a leftie, I think that there is some discrimination here.
Tradition smadition, I don't think it matters whether left over right or right over left.
By the way, did you ever look closely at the mudra of most Buddha statues?? Notice which hand is on the bottom??
Gassho, J
STlah
[emoji1374] Sat TodayLeave a comment:
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As the father of a leftie, I think that there is some discrimination here.
Tradition smadition, I don't think it matters whether left over right or right over left.
By the way, did you ever look closely at the mudra of most Buddha statues?? Notice which hand is on the bottom??
Gassho, J
STlahLeave a comment:
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The mudra never changes!
Let me just say, for the posture to “become second nature”, all you need to do it sit in it.. day in and day out. It’s not about “thinking” it or worrying about it, cause we don’t stop and think of how we use our hands to eat, or how we step when we walk, or how we breathe, right? We simply do. Zazen is like that. [emoji3526]
[emoji1374] Sat Today (and ran a little long as well)Leave a comment:
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I think that is a good idea, Chris. I used to do the same when I started sitting for a reasonable length of time and it was helpful to my longer-term comfort in the posture(s).At the beginning I did not want to alternate legs from session to session, but as from today I have started to do so in order to avoid potential longterm problems...for some reason the discomfort in my left hip is larger and comes quicker around the corner when my left leg is upper in half lotus...I will continue to stretch my hips regularly and maybe it will get better over time.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-Leave a comment:
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Yes, within a session I really try to not move at all "whatever happens" so to speak i.e. I push through some discomfort...
At the beginning I did not want to alternate legs from session to session, but as from today I have started to do so in order to avoid potential longterm problems...for some reason the discomfort in my left hip is larger and comes quicker around the corner when my left leg is upper in half lotus...I will continue to stretch my hips regularly and maybe it will get better over time.
Preferrably I did not want to have to alternate legs from session to session (as said) because I think that it might be easier for the brain to only need to "know" one posture to really make it "second nature". But on the other hand 2 postures (still half lotus but alternating legs) should be a small enough number so that one should hopefully not have trouble to make those postures "second nature".
I will just observe how it goes within the next few weeks - in case the discomfort and pain will not be reduced in a few weeks despite stretching and what not, I just might switch to a quarter lotus which I personally prefer to a burmese posture since it gives my knees less pressure...
PS.: The hand mudra I do not alternate by the way and hope that's fine - this means, no matter if my left or right leg is upper,
always my left hand is on top of the right hand.
Sorry for the long post.
Gassho
Chris
Sat todayLeave a comment:
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To each there own body. Just do not obsess about which way is better.
But, when the bell rings until the bell rings again, try not to switch unless there is really necessity.
Gassho, J
STLahLast edited by Jundo; 12-22-2021, 02:17 PM.Leave a comment:
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Not really… I have zero stability with right over left. I will at times switch to a very awkward burmese .. [emoji1]
[emoji1374] Sat TodayLeave a comment:
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Exactly. Right foot/leg is resting on the floor, pretty much attached to the zafu, underneath the left one.Great series so far with lots of good humor, as well
Regarding lesson 3 (sitting postures) :
When sitting in the half lotus, I think that if the left leg rests on the right thigh, the right leg is basically under the left leg (as shown in the pdf-instructions from TreeLeaf) and not in front (like it would be in the burmese style) ?
Other than this,
I agree that not forcing oneself into a certain posture is important. But trying it gradually might be alright, if one really wants to try.
By trying I mean to start regularly stretching, especially the hips so that they open up over time. From my understanding flexible hips are the key for a safe lotus-posture or its variants and only a little flexibility is needed regarding legs and knees.
In fact, when the hips are not very flexible, the knee-joints would "take over" and would force you into the lotus-posture which will cause indeed potential longterm damage to one's knees and joints.
So stretching especially the hips and a bit the legs is a good habit one could regularly develop (just for a few minutes before you practice, for instance) and see how it goes - I find that a bit mindful stretching where you should breath anyways deep into the belly can oftentimes also serve as a good "preparation" for Zazen-Practice in general.
Anyways, great series and excited to continue to watch til the end of it - thanks a lot for this work!
Gassho
Chris
Sat today
Stretching is ESSENTIAL. Before sitting, stretch and when in the posture, sway side to side or in a circle, slowly coming to a halt when the posture if stable. When you’re done, the same: gassho at the bell, then sway, stretch, bend, and get up slowly! [emoji3526]
Sat Today [emoji1374]Leave a comment:
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Great series so far with lots of good humor, as well
Regarding lesson 3 (sitting postures) :
When sitting in the half lotus, I think that if the left leg rests on the right thigh, the right leg is basically under the left leg (as shown in the pdf-instructions from TreeLeaf) and not in front (like it would be in the burmese style) ?
Other than this,
I agree that not forcing oneself into a certain posture is important. But trying it gradually might be alright, if one really wants to try.
By trying I mean to start regularly stretching, especially the hips so that they open up over time. From my understanding flexible hips are the key for a safe lotus-posture or its variants and only a little flexibility is needed regarding legs and knees.
In fact, when the hips are not very flexible, the knee-joints would "take over" and would force you into the lotus-posture which will cause indeed potential longterm damage to one's knees and joints.
So stretching especially the hips and a bit the legs is a good habit one could regularly develop (just for a few minutes before you practice, for instance) and see how it goes - I find that a bit mindful stretching where you should breath anyways deep into the belly can oftentimes also serve as a good "preparation" for Zazen-Practice in general.
Anyways, great series and excited to continue to watch til the end of it - thanks a lot for this work!
Gassho
Chris
Sat todayLeave a comment:
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Hah! The Buddha and Dogen never had to bow to a computer, so this is a very new question.
As Bion says, it is just respectful to give a little Gassho entering the room, then Gassho again at one's sitting place facing the cushion before fluffing and straightening it, then turning clockwise 180 degrees, Gassho again to the room, then sit. The computer is not a consideration, so please forget about the computer. Anyone sitting with you online is there in the room with you when you forget about the computer and distance.
Gassho, Jundo
STLahLeave a comment:
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