Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Ramsey]

Quick update: Raising my hands on a cushion on my lap made a huge difference. Thanks!

[newby_x86]

Hello all,

Just wanted to run this by you guys. I do a short round of mantra recitation or some pranayama breathing exercises right before sittings at times. Is this something yall would recommend I keep up so long as it helps with the sittings. Looking for opinions really.


newby/Sat

[Jundo]

Hello all,

Just wanted to run this by you guys. I do a short round of mantra recitation or some pranayama breathing exercises right before sittings at times. Is this something yall would recommend I keep up so long as it helps with the sittings. Looking for opinions really.


newby/Sat

Hi Anant,

We don't tend to emphasize special breathing exercises in Soto Zen, where Master Dogen's advice was to let the long breaths be long, the short breaths be short, and just breathe naturally (apart from three deep breaths at the start of Zazen):

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14885-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2811%29&p=189094#post189094

Also, although there are some Dharani and Mantra common in Soto Zen, such as the Daihishin (Nīlakaṇṭha/Great Compassion Dhāraṇī) and the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo (The Dharani for Preventing Disaster) ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%ABlaka%E1%B9%87%E1%B9%ADha_Dh%C4%81ra%E1%B9%87%C4%AB

https://redcedarzen.org/Sho-Sai-Myo-Kichijo-Dharani

... I do not include them in our Rituals and Ceremonies here at Treeleaf because of my view that they were originally, and primarily, used as something like magic spells, "abracadabra". You can read more of my skepticism here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15129-Daily-Prayer-Practice&p=194904&viewfull=1#post194904

That is just my view, and I know that others can find great power there. If you feel that it helps you settle, then please do what feels right. For me, it is not much different from singing "Happy Birthday" before Zazen if it helps you. If it helps you settle for Zazen, then sing so.

However, in doing so, do you truly understand the radical power of Shikantaza as non-gaining, not intentionally seeking any special state, or are you hoping to induce some special or unusual state of mind? That is another question.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[newby_x86]

Hi Jundo, thanks for the reply.

In the past, and even off and on (on bad days), the temptation for escapism has been there, I must confess. (no different than tuning out to drinking for instance, or anything else on a bad day). Naturally, it has always led to despair in the past. I guess I'm more aware of it now instead, try to be anyway. And that is not at all my intention from this practise. It may be a while before I really get it in my bones.

Edit - I forgot to mention, the breathing exercise I take up helps with the sittings. I steer clear of the more overt forms or forceful breath retention exercises. I should hope that is fine.


newby/Sat

[newby_x86]

Hi all,

I struggle with dullness especially these days. To deal with it I have started turning to these Contemplations by Atisha I found here. Ever so often, during sittings or walking, when I find myself slipping into dullness, I would briefly just reiterate one or so points from these contemplations. Sometimes it helps to liven me up a bit, other times, it can be somewhat agitating.

Please advise if contemplations on death should be done during sittings or kinhin, or should they be done separately, such as at the start of sittings or as a separate practise altogether.

Also, some tips on promoting wakefulnes/keeping up motivation to practise in general would help.

Thanks a lot guys.

newby/Sat

[Mp]

Hi all,

I struggle with dullness especially these days. To deal with it I have started turning to these Contemplations by Atisha I found here. Ever so often, during sittings or walking, when I find myself slipping into dullness, I would briefly just reiterate one or so points from these contemplations. Sometimes it helps to liven me up a bit, other times, it can be somewhat agitating.

Please advise if contemplations on death should be done during sittings or kinhin, or should they be done separately, such as at the start of sittings or as a separate practise altogether.

Also, some tips on promoting wakefulnes/keeping up motivation to practise in general would help.

Thanks a lot guys.

newby/Sat

Hello,

In our tradition we don't contemplate on such matters, when sitting just sit and be engaged/present with life as it is, as it is unfolding.

Why contemplate on death when you are alive and here? When we fixate our mind or attention on a single point we cannot see life, we can only see that single point of fixation. Again just be present with the wholeness, the completeness of life. If you find yourself being dull or lazy during zazen or kinhin, recognized that, acknowledge it, and come back to being present with the whole completeness of this life.

To keep up practice really is to just practice ... to dedicate yourself to zazen. The more you do this, the easier sitting becomes. But even when sitting is not so easy, just sit. Know in your heart and mind the benefit zazen has for both you and the world around you.

Hope this helps. =)

Gasho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Yes, as was said, whether one finds such Contemplations helpful is according to your own heart. If they are helpful reminders for you, then I see nothing wrong with them at all, and much so right.

However, when sitting Shikantaza Zazen, there is only Zazen and we do not engage in Contemplations. When sitting Zazen, nothing more is needed but sitting and nothing is lacking. Likewise for Kinhin, when walking Kinhin just walk. Do not engage in thoughts or intentionally contemplate.

On motivation, Shingen says it so well ...

To keep up practice really is to just practice ... to dedicate yourself to zazen. The more you do this, the easier sitting becomes. But even when sitting is not so easy, just sit. Know in your heart and mind the benefit zazen has for both you and the world around you.

You know, coming each day to sit in stillness for awhile is so hard for human beings, who feel we must run and chase and get done and ponder. The little self does not wish to pause.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[newby_x86]

Thank you both for your thoughts,

newby, SatToday

[SNPII]

Jundo and group! Hello!

I just completed the first video (Lesson One) and must say I am excited to continue on! I did meditate earlier for about 45 minutes in a hammock in the backyard and have to say I probably got about 10 minutes of peace there. I am looking forward to learning this method of sitting as I am definately new to Buddhism and my practice. I have heard this form is a very formal form, but I am going to remain open and continue!

Hoping everyone is well!

Shane

[SNPII]

Hey All! I needed this message today! The mind was rampant, the body was tense (maybe a little still). Nothing to do and nothing to accomplish. I think I will sit some more in the beautiful sunny weather and ease this mental state some more!

Sattoday Will sit more today.

[Genjun]

Oh, don't do that!

Here is an past thread on eyes ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13811-Eyes-focus-and-sleep&p=162390&viewfull=1#post162390

I hope that answers your question, "wander quite naturally, resting where they rest" but not particularly thinking about or judging what I am looking at. Eyes about 1/2 or 1/3 open. Let me know if that helps.

Gassho, Jundo

That answers what I was just about to ask about. Thanks, Jundo.

Sat today.

[Sekiyuu]

I have heard this form is a very formal form, but I am going to remain open and continue!

There are many different meditation methods out there (and only some of them are explicitly "Buddhist"). I posted about this elsewhere so sorry if you've already read this: I first learned zazen from a book, but only met and sat in group meditation many years later with a college professor who is Tibetan Buddhist. He regarded Zen-style sitting as more strict than necessary, and encouraged things such as guided meditation, visualizing various things in tune with your breathing, and other concentration methods that are definitely not "not-thinking", as well as a much more lax attitude about posture. It gave me a bit of context for zazen, which in retrospect was incredibly helpful in teaching me more about zazen itself simply through contrast.

That said, I find myself coming back to zazen and shikantaza in particular for a few major reasons:
- No nonsense: I have trouble taking things like reciting mantras out loud seriously, or doing particular mudras, or concentrating on energy flows through chakras. Apologies to folks who take them extremely seriously!
- It's technical, but not too technical: Zen is the "sitting" school, so of course a lot of thought goes in to how precisely you should be sitting. At the same time, there's leeway, the ultimate goal is to just sit still for long periods of time, ideally without any back support. It feels very grounding: these are things people could discover without ever having heard of Zen or Buddhism. (There's even a word for this: pratyekabuddha)
- Koans, visualizations, etc tend to just complicate my practice and make me feel like I'm always doing it wrong. A few years ago I attempted regular sitting but got frustrated and quit because I felt like I was either getting distracted too much or making no progress. Now I just sit no matter what. Maybe I don't have enough of a type-A personality for those methods.
- It's just really practical! When you sit, you just sit, there are no mantras, koans, or visualizations to remember. I have a full-time job and a hobby which has become a part-time job, so my brain is under constant assault from non-Zen stuff. When I carve out the time to sit, there's nothing to prepare, I just do it.

However, I would not have discovered those reasons without researching or practicing other methods. It's probably not necessary for everyone, but it's certainly helped me get through doubts about whether this is really the best practice for me.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[newby_x86]

Dear Fellas,

This concerns holding our hands in Shashu while doing kinhin. I find that it starts to feel a little special when I do that and that puts me off doing the whole thing entirely at times. Is there any particular reason, postural or otherwise, why holding our hands in Shashu is recommended?

Please render your thoughts, I'd rather it just be an ordinary activity and not feel special or anything in particular at all. For now, I just keep my hands clasped behind my back while doing slow walkings.

Thank you and best wishes,
newby / SaT

[Jundo]

Dear Fellas,

This concerns holding our hands in Shashu while doing kinhin. I find that it starts to feel a little special when I do that and that puts me off doing the whole thing entirely at times. Is there any particular reason, postural or otherwise, why holding our hands in Shashu is recommended?

Please render your thoughts, I'd rather it just be an ordinary activity and not feel special or anything in particular at all. For now, I just keep my hands clasped behind my back while doing slow walkings.

Thank you and best wishes,
newby / SaT

As an alternative, you can stick your fingers in your nose and walk. That is special too. Everything is special. I am not making a joke or kidding you.

However, our Tradition is to hold the hands in Shashu. I am not sure if that was done in India, but records show something like that in China for a few thousand years, without regard to Zen in particular. It is just a calm and respectful way to stand. It should not feel uncomfortable or strange at all, and is just a good way to hold the hands when not in use. This is Confucius, I believe, not a Zen fellow ...



There was recently a discussion about this by some Soto Teachers. There are many esoteric meanings given to the Shashu Mudra by some. Here is one that apparently comes from the Late Soto Teacher, Kobun Chino ...

The left fist is a vajra mudra expressing diamond-like clarity or will or intent. The left hand in this and other mudras represents the human realm, the right the Buddha realm. The left thumb represents the human realm specifically ... (with other digits of both hands represent other various realms). So it seems in this mudra the human realm, which is frail and vulnerable, is being protected or embraced by all the other realms. The whole right hand, representing the Buddha realm, covers it.

Whatever. Nice interpretation I suppose. People can always come up with such symbolism for almost anything.

I think that Shashu is just a nice, calm, respectful way to place the hands. Two become one. Hard to walk calmly and nicely while picking the nose, sacred or not.

Please hold your hands in Shashu, Newby (what is your human name?) whether you wish to or not because your likes and dislikes are mostly between your ears.



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

Dear Fellas,

This concerns holding our hands in Shashu while doing kinhin. I find that it starts to feel a little special when I do that and that puts me off doing the whole thing entirely at times. Is there any particular reason, postural or otherwise, why holding our hands in Shashu is recommended?

Please render your thoughts, I'd rather it just be an ordinary activity and not feel special or anything in particular at all. For now, I just keep my hands clasped behind my back while doing slow walkings.

Thank you and best wishes,
newby / SaT

Hello there,

I have to say, I do like Jundo's replay,

Please hold your hands in Shashu, Newby (what is your human name?) whether you wish to or not because your likes and dislikes are mostly between your ears.

I also once heard this explanation and I do feel this explanation was a mixture of traditions and ideas and not our traditional understanding, but I thought it to be a nice expression none the less. They said when we sit zazen we are cutting away the separation our minds brings into this world and brings a state of unity and wholeness. The zazen mudra is this unity, unifying "wisdom" and "compassion" ... it also can apply to kinhin and the shashu position, here we are bring that wisdom, compassion, and non-separation into our hearts (as our hands are close to our hearts).

I also agree it is a nice relaxed and welcoming position ... so give a try, over time you will see the benefit.

Something like that. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH