Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Chikyou]

I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

[Jundo]

I've just finished lesson 4 and I have a question: can someone clarify the distinction between zazen and shikantaza? Having read and listened to the talks, they seem to be used interchangeably at times but also to mean different things.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you for your answer!

To check my understanding: Zazen is the practice overall, and shikantaza is the specific type of zazen that we practice, do I understand correctly?

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

[Jundo]

That is correct, Kelly.

And, of course, there are many kinds of "meditation" in the world, of which Zazen is just one flavor.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Guest]

Hi Kelly,

Well, there are basically two main flavors of Zazen in the Zen world:

In Soto Zen, as is practiced here, our way is "Shikantaza" (which means something like "Just Sitting that Hits the Mark").

In Rinzai Zen, and some mixed Rinzai-Soto groups often found in the west, the focus tends to be on "Koan Introspection Zazen," in which the practice is to sit focused on a Koan or phrase from a Koan, typically anticipating a "Kensho" breakthrough experience. Such groups often also practice something which they may call "Shikantaza," but it is often a secondary practice to Koan Introspection, or taught merely as sitting following the breath and not much more.

There are also some other kinds of Zazen focused on repeating a Mantra or reciting the name of a Buddha, often found in Chinese style Chan (Zen), but those are less common in the west.

All lovely ways, same but different. In our Sangha, we practice Shikantaza.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today/LAH

[Chikyou]

Thank you Jundo for this clarification. My experience with Shikantaza has been similar. Even when I encountered those variations of zazen, I never stopped practicing Shikantaza. It just always made the most sense to me…like a knowing you are home. It is such a beautiful practice and very simple yet very profound. Thank you for creating this place where we can all come as a community and share in such a wonderful way of practicing zazen.

Gassho,

Wondo

Sat Today/LAH

This is similar to my experience as well; I have tried various forms of meditation (not Zazen, but several attempts at other forms of meditation, most recently western "mindfulness", over the years) and none of it really made much sense to me. When I tried Shikantaza, it was like a light finally turned on. It just makes sense in a way nothing else has.

Gassho
SatToday

-Kelly

[Chikyou]

I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

Gassho
SatToday
-Kelly

[Tomás ESP]

I just finished Lesson Nine and I am filled with so much gratitude for this teaching. Learning that thoughts are natural and not something to be judged is a breath of fresh air. I loved the cloud video because usually, when I think of 'thoughts as clouds' I think of fast moving cartoon type clouds; it was a good reminder of how spread out and lingering clouds ACTUALLY are.

Gassho
SatToday
-Kelly

Thank you for sharing Kelly, I am glad you enjoyed it

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Chikyou]

I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

Gassho,
SatToday
-Kelly

[Jundo]

I just finished Lesson 11 and spent more time focusing on the breath; I'm also reading What is Zen by Norman Fischer and Susan Moon and have been holding a more upright posture as well. I'm noticing something unexpected: it's actually more difficult to maintain focus when I'm paying attention to my breath and posture than it is when I just let everything be.

Has anyone else had this experience, and am I trying too hard?

Gassho,
SatToday
-Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Chikyou]

Hi Kelly,

Well, I would advise not to spend too much time worrying about the breath or posture. Just let the breath take care of itself. Oh, we like to breathe deeply, from the belly, but not in any forced or controlled way. Let the breath be natural, at its own pace, and then ... forget about it. Breathing happens naturally, takes care of itself.

Likewise for the posture. It is not something to regulate or try to perfect, in my book. Find a comfortable way that feels balanced and stable, and then ... forget about it. Maybe adjust now and then as needed, but then ... forget about it again. No need to pay attention to such things all through sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo. I suspected as much; I have been doing my best to follow each teaching as I receive it, and I suspect that I will find balance somewhere including all of them with practice.

Love the cat by the way!

Gassho,
SatToday

-Kelly

[Mason]

I’ve been watching one video a day before my morning Zazen and I just finished the final beginner’s video this morning. For now I have no questions that haven’t already been asked in this thread, but I just wanted to express my gratitude for this wonderful resource. They’ve been very very helpful, so thank you Jundo!

Gassho,
Mason
Sat

[Tai Shi]

I visit at least one sitting session with Treeleaf folks every day. Soon I will start Zazenkai because I am well enough. For me Treeleaf has become sitting.
Gassho
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Artien]

After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,

Artien
SatToday

[Bion]

Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

After some reflection, reading the description again and watching the video twice I admit I do not get video 10 "the Mirror" or mirrormind. I understand what is said in the video and about the topic in this thread, but unlike the idea's presented in video 9 about the clouds and the sky, I don't understand how to apply this. I understand the words, but do not know what to do with it?

Yes, we reflect without judgement just what is there. Just as we don't judge the clouds (or thoughts) that pass through our Zazen. We accept.

But, what is the difference between the two or are they the same principle explained another way?

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,

Artien
SatToday

I won’t dare to try and explain anything as if it was doctrine.. I will say just that TO ME, the two are tied into each other.. “Watching clouds” requires an observer and the object observed, so we operate in a realm of separation: I watch “my own” thoughts and don’t interact with them, as if thoughts and observer were distinct. It is an action I take .. The mirror analogy, for me is the unification of that imaginary separation. The mirror is the space in which clouds passing by are reflected.. clouds don’t disturb the mirror, mirror doesn’t stop clouds, clouds and mirror exist as each other. That’s the nature of mind, free of divisions and self. So, I guess I understand it, in few words as : one is a doing and the other is being.
I’m sure you’ll get a proper and accurate reply soon enough. This is just my incomplete ideas, so don’t give them too much credit, please!
Sorry, I tried to be brief but still ran long.

[emoji1374] Sat Today