Split Thread: "Freedom of Art Expression" v. "No Politics" Rule at Treeleaf

[Onka]

This post was posted in a members only forum specifically so that members only can read it. The post above is a little vague but enough of us saw the unfolding mess so will know exactly where and what happened. What I wrote could not have been shared privately nor should it have.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jundo]

Hi Onka,

You are referring to the thread in the Art Forum where Jishin posted a picture of Joe Biden, and some other pictures of Israeli and American Flags, which I objected to because we do not engage in partisan politics in this Forum (including the Art Forum), and we avoid specific candidates, political symbols (e.g., MAGA hats), and national flags, etc. I later removed the pictures of Joe Biden and the flags after first just attaching a note that they are really not acceptable. Jishin responded by posting graphic pictures of the Holocaust. We left the Holocaust photos with a comment such as "This does not shock us, as we Zen folks look right at the ugliness of Samsara," but the priests and I also discussed whether to pull them down. Here is where the discussion began:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17998-EXPRESSING-CREATIVITY-Media-Arts-photography-videography-photo-collage-etc&p=275285&viewfull=1#post275285

I don't like to close threads, and we rarely do around here. I like to keep discussions of such Forum policy issues out in the open, as I did here (and did with some of Onka's posts in the past) although I ALSO engaged in some private PM'ing with the people involved to try to settle things. Is that wrong? Why should I have hidden the discussion? Why not try to diffuse tensions with a little humor here and there too?

I am sorry if our two hosts of the Art Forum decided to quite (not at my request), but I try to avoid partisan politics in any part of the Forum.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kokuu]

A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.

Thank you for your thoughts, Onka.

Did it really take us all with it? Interactions like this are part of being human and less than perfect handling of situations will also happen as we try to deal with what arises as best we can.

Did anyone learn for the first time that Treeleaf Zendo is not perfect and sometimes there are disruptions and conflicts? Maybe.

What I would say, is that these kinds of situations do arise from time to time and then are dealt with in one way or another and we carry on.

In that way, it is not unlike our practice with the precepts.

Jundo and the rest of us in the training group try to have a light hand in terms of moderation and it may be that sometimes we need to step in earlier. But, we are doing our best.

We try to learn from each experience like this and strive to do better next time something similar arises. But, each time something happens like this, it is still part of the great whole of flowing reality and to expect life, even in a Zendo, to not contain moments of attrition, would be to deny reality.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

By the way, it is very difficult to balance this "Freedom of Artistic Expression" and "No Partisan Politics in the Sangha" rule. I just wrote this to our priests.

I also want to keep the "no politics, no partisan political symbols (like MAGA hats), no candidates" rule for the Art forum. It is the same for all the Forum. For example, I am happy to celebrate "women's equality in leadership and government" as a general principle in keeping with our modern Buddhist ethical views (it sure wasn't the traditional view), but I hesitate to celebrate "Ruth Bader Ginsburg" or "Kamala Harris" by name, because then others will want to celebrate Amy Coney Barrett (RBG's conservative replacement), Ivanka, Margaret Thatcher, etc. etc. by name, and we are into partisan politics. It must apply to our art forum too. Freedom of art expression can only go so far in our Sangha, and we cannot allow images that are pornographic, racist, based on the theme of "praise Jesus," "Free the Palestinians" (or Tibet), God Bless America, "Get Russia Out of Ukraine," "Trump was Robbed" etc. etc. in our art forum no matter how any of us personally feel about those causes. We are not a public museum, but a group dedicated to art for purposes of Buddhist and Zen practice.

Furthermore, really in original conception, the art forum was to have a Zen/Buddhist themed emphasis, but it is fine to have a general art emphasis if that is preferred. I am not sure myself what is a "Zen" theme versus general art.

(Also, if I may, I am going to merge this discussion, and the discussion with Jishin, in a single thread on the topic in the Art Forum)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Risho]

I hope no one quits anything; I mean we're normally pretty easy going; sometimes people get ruffled, but we are all one big Sangha and, especially if you have a dharma name, please stay; we've all taken the time to study and sew the rakusu. We don't always agree, but those vows should really mean something.

Please no one quit- I know you don't always see it, but I get pretty peeved sometimes, and I'm ready to quit. I think Jishin said he quits all the time. It's just natural that we get on each others' nerves. I know sometimes I really come in "hot". I'm consciously trying to not to be so aggressive even when it's hard not to.

I mean, Onka, not to pick on you, but I've noticed a huge change in your posting for the better, and I try to follow your example.

Please no one quit. This is a special place; let's not forget that.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Onka]

Yes Jundo, feel free to merge anything you want. It is with a huge sense of relief and an audible PHEW! that my opening post was received as it was intended, almost a plea from a beginner practitioner and Zen muppet. I always look to move forward as a person and as a practitioner of the Way, one and the same and felt real pain in Meitou's words. I just wish I could've done more for everyone concerned.
Deep bows
Onka
ST

[Jakuden]

This short message many will think ironic coming from me but the truth is that I've never set out to be a disruptive element within the Treeleaf Sangha. Moreover, if anything all I've done is bring a different perspective than the dominant narrative.
I need to say that the way this Sangha has publicly represented itself since the US election has been pretty ordinary. In my humble opinion there was no single person to blame for what transpired within the publicly accessible Art forum but it has resulted in two valued members of the Sangha pulling back from moderating roles. Shame on us all. Yes ALL! This public display was nothing short of a pissing contest where the main players know better.
Jishin, you are an intelligent man who understands the human condition very well. I would humbly suggest that you could've taken your brinksmanship to the pŕivate messaging arena where you and Wikipedia could battle Jundo and Wikipedia. If I can try and do better and be better then you can too.
Jundo, you didn't need to win. You could've and should've closed the thread concerned a lot earlier. Instead it came across to me at least that you needed to prove a point. Fair enough, but how about reading the mood of the Sangha a bit better? Yes, when practicing Shikantaza we should leave politics at the door but in the lead up and immediate aftermath of what is a hugely important political time many of us have needed to feel ok about expressing our feelings with our fellow Sangha sisters, brothers and others. Again, of course you're right about leaving politics at the door and yes I need to hold onto labels lighter but post-election Jundo you didn't need to publicly duke it out on the Art forum of all places despite that being where the alleged infringement occurred. You too could've taken the high road and gone to private messaging as you've done with me many times after giving one of my posts the hook but instead kept the pissing contest going with the use of jokes, emojis and images you knew would inflame rather placate Jishin.
Yes, Treeleaf is yours. Yes, you're the judge, jury and interpreter but what has been left as a public record of Treeleaf is an unnecessary stain on us all.
This brings me to the rest of us...
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
I'm beyond caring if this post gets me banned to be honest because that's what I've been... honest.
I respect Jundo as a teacher despite openly admitting that privately he and I have had some colourful interactions. Just because Jundo is our chosen teacher does not mean he's perfect. He's not and will admit that like the rest of us he's perfectly imperfect. We can respect our teacher while also questioning his timing or communicated teaching.
If this is the last I'm heard from here at Treeleaf I wish you all well. I will be practicing with you all from rural Queensland, Australia hoping that Treeleaf continues to be a tremendous Zen resource and an open minded place of practice growth.
Especially now, be kind to yourselves and look out for each other.
With warmest regards
Gassho
Onka/Anna
Sat today

*I acknowledge but don't apologise for going over 3 sentences.

I hear you!

It's times like this that I know practice works, because maybe in the past I would have been equally exasperated, but instead I really just feel a little urgency about going to do my priest assignment without being distracted by forum drama. LOL

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jishin]

Yes Jundo, feel free to merge anything you want. It is with a huge sense of relief and an audible PHEW! that my opening post was received as it was intended, almost a plea from a beginner practitioner and Zen muppet. I always look to move forward as a person and as a practitioner of the Way, one and the same and felt real pain in Meitou's words. I just wish I could've done more for everyone concerned.
Deep bows
Onka
ST

Hi Onka,

I deal with extremely difficult situations on a daily basis due to my line of work and may have visited with 25 patients today alone. In between juggling work, being a father, husband and other duties I somehow find time to hang out at treeleaf. What anyone says here that I disagree with does not occupy space for very long. I don't have energy for grudges. I say my peace (שלום/shalom in hebrew) and somebody says theirs and we have a final arbitration at the end of the discussion. It's all good.

Arguments (without affect) are necessary to arrive at truth. My lawyer patients have been rumored to engage in fierce battles in court but are good friends during happy hour.

As I see it, I prosecuted my case to the best of my ability and the supreme court has ruled. It is a waste of my time to pursue the same case again unless there is a slight variation to the circumstances and I somehow can muster the intrapsychic energy to do so because frankly Jundo just wears you down when you battle him.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Hi Onka,

I deal with extremely difficult situations on a daily basis due to my line of work and may have visited with 25 patients today alone. In between juggling work, being a father, husband and other duties I somehow find time to hang out at treeleaf. What anyone says here that I disagree with does not occupy space for very long. I don't have energy for grudges. I say my peace (שלום/shalom in hebrew) and somebody says theirs and we have a final arbitration at the end of the discussion. It's all good.

Arguments (without affect) are necessary to arrive at truth. My lawyer patients have been rumored to engage in fierce battles in court but are good friends during happy hour.

As I see it, I prosecuted my case to the best of my ability and the supreme court has ruled. It is a waste of my time to pursue the same case again unless there is a slight variation to the circumstances and I somehow can muster the intrapsychic energy to do so because frankly Jundo just wears you down when you battle him.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Yes, please cool down a few days, relax and take some walks, and then come back to Treeleaf and let's talk about other nice subjects ... that are not political. Thank you.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meitou]

This short message many will think ironic coming from me but the truth is that I've never set out to be a disruptive element within the Treeleaf Sangha. Moreover, if anything all I've done is bring a different perspective than the dominant narrative.
I need to say that the way this Sangha has publicly represented itself since the US election has been pretty ordinary. In my humble opinion there was no single person to blame for what transpired within the publicly accessible Art forum but it has resulted in two valued members of the Sangha pulling back from moderating roles. Shame on us all. Yes ALL! This public display was nothing short of a pissing contest where the main players know better.
Jishin, you are an intelligent man who understands the human condition very well. I would humbly suggest that you could've taken your brinksmanship to the pŕivate messaging arena where you and Wikipedia could battle Jundo and Wikipedia. If I can try and do better and be better then you can too.
Jundo, you didn't need to win. You could've and should've closed the thread concerned a lot earlier. Instead it came across to me at least that you needed to prove a point. Fair enough, but how about reading the mood of the Sangha a bit better? Yes, when practicing Shikantaza we should leave politics at the door but in the lead up and immediate aftermath of what is a hugely important political time many of us have needed to feel ok about expressing our feelings with our fellow Sangha sisters, brothers and others. Again, of course you're right about leaving politics at the door and yes I need to hold onto labels lighter but post-election Jundo you didn't need to publicly duke it out on the Art forum of all places despite that being where the alleged infringement occurred. You too could've taken the high road and gone to private messaging as you've done with me many times after giving one of my posts the hook but instead kept the pissing contest going with the use of jokes, emojis and images you knew would inflame rather placate Jishin.
Yes, Treeleaf is yours. Yes, you're the judge, jury and interpreter but what has been left as a public record of Treeleaf is an unnecessary stain on us all.
This brings me to the rest of us...
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
I'm beyond caring if this post gets me banned to be honest because that's what I've been... honest.
I respect Jundo as a teacher despite openly admitting that privately he and I have had some colourful interactions. Just because Jundo is our chosen teacher does not mean he's perfect. He's not and will admit that like the rest of us he's perfectly imperfect. We can respect our teacher while also questioning his timing or communicated teaching.
If this is the last I'm heard from here at Treeleaf I wish you all well. I will be practicing with you all from rural Queensland, Australia hoping that Treeleaf continues to be a tremendous Zen resource and an open minded place of practice growth.
Especially now, be kind to yourselves and look out for each other.
With warmest regards
Gassho
Onka/Anna
Sat today

*I acknowledge but don't apologise for going over 3 sentences.

Thank you Onka for articulating so well what I've been witnessing, I agree with every word you've written.
I'd like to make it clear that Anne and I have not left TL, we, as hosts who are not needed, have only stepped down from our roles in the Art forum, and stepped back from the general forum discussions.
On behalf of Anne and myself, I thank those of you who have thanked us privately and on the forum for the work we put in here. And thank you Onka for your support.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Jundo]

Hi Meitou,

This is not so, you are both most needed and appreciated, and perhaps you might consider to stay.

... as hosts who are not needed ...

Gassho, Jundo

STlah

[Cooperix]

I too would like to express my gratitude to those Sangha members that offered support both on the forum and in private messages to Meitou and myself. This has been encouraging and very helpful.

bowing to all.
Anne

~lahst~

[Jishin]

Sunset in West Texas just now.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Onka]

Absolutely breathtaking Jishin.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jishin]

Thank you Onka!

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

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