[Ecodharma] An Ecodharma perspective on the US election

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40466

    #16
    Well, I am just writing a section of my new book on "population bottlenecks" and how your ancestors and mine are survivors ...

    It is theorized that, around 74,000 years ago, the Toba supervolvano’s eruption near today’s Indonesia may have dramatically cooled the Earth and led to famine, with all Homo sapiens on the globe reduced to a mere 1,000 or 10,000 individuals. If so, all modern humans, including you, would be heir to those lucky survivors. Even in more recent times, from pre-history to eras of known history, plagues, famines, natural disasters and wars shaved the human population from Asia to Africa to Australia, Europe to the Americas. As but one instance, the Black Death of the 14th century is estimated to have killed 30 to 60% of the European population. Tens of millions more died in Asia and parts of Africa. The population of China alone may have dropped from 125 million to 90 million in but a few years, and likewise for the loss of a third of people in North Africa and the Middle East.

    History can be terrible and tragic.

    Nonetheless, not one of your ancestors, not in any epoch or generation, was ever the victim of famine or flood, war or earthquake, plague or pestilence … not one, not ever … before having lived long enough to sire the next generation of your line. You come from an amazingly long lineage of lucky leftovers.
    So, I am certainly not going to argue with you that another "bottleneck" is impossible or even unlikely. I also happen to be reading a wonderful book called "Fluke" that makes this point ...

    When we try to assert our control over complex systems, much can go wrong. China, under Mao Zedong, found this out the hard way. Mao didn’t understand that nature’s ecology is complex— untamable and sensitive to changes to even a few species. During the Four Pests campaign, China’s dictator ordered citizens to kill rats, flies, mosquitoes, and sparrows. He hoped it would help eradicate human disease. But when the sparrows were wiped out, locusts no longer faced a natural predator. It contributed to unexpected ecological havoc, as the locusts took over. The ensuing famine left as many as 55 million people dead.[LINK]
    So, it is quite possible that such events can happen again.

    For a "live in the moment" Zen fellow, however, you are planning now for a disaster that perhaps you should not worry about quite that much. It is a little bit like worrying about being in a car or plane crash (they will happen sometimes), so avoiding to travel and visit family and great foreign places. It might keep you safe, or you might get food poisoning from your naturally fertilized burdock or fall into your newly dug well.

    The book "Fluke" also makes the point that it is very difficult or impossible to make long term societal projections. However, it also makes the point that sand piles will naturally experience collapse from time to time. So, society is bound to as well.

    Why do such unpredictable cascades happen? The answer may lie with a phenomenon known as self-organized criticality. The name
    was coined in 1987 by Per Bak, a Danish physicist who showed how his concept applied to grains of sand in a sandpile. The grains slowly
    build up, one by one, in a stable pattern. Everything seems perfectly ordered, stable, and predictable as the pile grows steadily. That is,
    until the sandpile hits a critical state and one additional grain of sand triggers an enormous avalanche. In such a sandpile model, you
    would expect to see periods of stability followed by catastrophic cascades that occur with no warning. Because a single grain can
    create that avalanche, small changes can have a large, destabilizing impact on the system. As Victor Hugo wrote in Les Misérables, “How
    do we know that the creations of worlds are not determined by falling grains of sand?” Per Bak’s answer was simple: we do know.
    Worlds can be determined not just by falling grains of sand, but by a single grain.

    ...

    Modern society is now so intertwined that ordinary individuals, not just kings and popes and generals, can redirect the entire
    human swarm. Consider this question: Who has been the most influential person of the twenty-first century so far? Some might say
    Xi Jinping, or Vladimir Putin, or Donald Trump. I disagree. My nomination would be an unnamed person. The COVID-19 pandemic
    likely started with a single person, in a single event, in Wuhan, China. The lives of literally billions of people were drastically
    changed, for years, by one virus infecting one individual. Never in human history have the daily lives of so many people been so
    drastically affected, for so long, by one small, contingent event. Welcome to the swarm.
    I am a "Luddite Lite," believing that we need to pull back from our present lifestyle and over indulgence in technology. But we also need technology to avoid many of the potential horrors you describe.

    I rather doubt that "peak oil" is itself a worry. I believe that, as soon as the oil begins to reach peak, the alternatives (solar, nuclear, hydrogen and electric vehicles, etc. etc.) will suddenly become economically scalable. The technologies already exist. It is just that we don't have the political leadership and pocket books to allow us to dive in deep enough. We won't until we really can't drill much more. It is shameful that that is so, but I don't believe that "peak oil" itself will be more than a blip.

    Gassho, J
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-10-2024, 06:34 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40466

      #17
      PS - However, just to be safe ... please recommend a good "how to survive Zombie apocalypse" book that tells me how to survive in a sudden emergency ... which bugs and weeds to eat, how to filter my water, how to build a fire and dig a latrine, how to perform my own emergency medical procedures ... which I will keep on the shelf here just in case. Serious request. I will also make sure that my kids have copies, and I will start reading it at the first sign of trouble.

      I will make sure to get paperback versions as, likely, my Kindle will not function for long in the blackout.

      It can't hurt.

      It might be too late by then, but I can at least throw the book as a weapon at the invading Mad Max tribes.
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40466

        #18
        Originally posted by Jundo
        PS - However, just to be safe ... please recommend a good "how to survive Zombie apocalypse" book that tells me how to survive in a sudden emergency ... which bugs and weeds to eat, how to filter my water, how to build a fire and dig a latrine, how to perform my own emergency medical procedures ... which I will keep on the shelf here just in case. Serious request. I will also make sure that my kids have copies, and I will start reading it at the first sign of trouble.

        I will make sure to get paperback versions as, likely, my Kindle will not function for long in the blackout.

        It can't hurt.

        It might be too late by then, but I can at least throw the book as a weapon at the invading Mad Max tribes.
        PPS - I just happened to watch this, recommended on this theme, if you get a chance ...

        It's a Blunderful Life is the seventh episode of Season 35 of The Simpsons, originally produced for Season 34.[2] An elderly Lisa recounts the story of how Homer was scapegoated for a power outage that plunged Springfield into darkness days before Thanksgiving to her family at the thanksgiving table. The episode takes place 60 years into the future. The Simpson family sits down for Thanksgiving dinner. For Marge, it is her first since Homer died. Fortunately, his hologram joins the meal. Before
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Ryumon
          Member
          • Apr 2007
          • 1801

          #19
          Originally posted by Matt Johnson
          One of the complexities I face in my commitment to the degrowth and peak-oil transition movement is reconciling my support for a systemic downsizing with the widespread fear and resistance to the collapse of capitalism. While many view this as a catastrophe to avoid at all costs, I see it as an opportunity for necessary change, albeit one that could be managed more thoughtfully. I advocate for a controlled, gradual reduction in living standards—a conscious realignment, if you will.
          The biggest problem with degrowth is the demographic collapse. There won't be enough working age people to pay for the pensions and health care of older people. Looking ahead, the natality around the world is decreasing, and I think that by the end of the century population will start decreasing. But by then, it's likely to be too later.

          Gassho,

          Ryūmon (Kirk)

          Sat Lah
          I know nothing.

          Comment

          • Ryumon
            Member
            • Apr 2007
            • 1801

            #20
            Originally posted by Matt Johnson
            We are facing an energy crisis. Exponential growth needs exponential energy and exponential space to process the waste.
            First, it's not exponential any more. Second, there is no energy crisis, there is an energy capture crisis. Go forward a few decades to where most homes and buildings will have solar panels, where wind turbines will compensate for clouds, and where other technologies will fill in the gaps. It's no longer an ideological issue, it's a financial issue: renewable energy is now cheaper to install and generate.

            As for wast, I do agree with you. But, again, population will start decreasing soon; births have stared to decrease, with a fertility rate of 2.25, where 2.1 is the replacement birth rate.

            The Spectator, a weekly British news magazine, has published an article falsely claiming that the global population will decline, when the UN’s latest projections predict we’re on track to grow to 10 billion. Campaigns and Media Officer Madeleine Hewitt responds with a detailed fact-check debunking the article’s claims.


            Gassho,

            Ryūmon (Kirk)

            Sat Lah
            I know nothing.

            Comment

            • Ryumon
              Member
              • Apr 2007
              • 1801

              #21
              Originally posted by Jundo

              I rather doubt that "peak oil" is itself a worry. I believe that, as soon as the oil begins to reach peak, the alternatives (solar, nuclear, hydrogen and electric vehicles, etc. etc.) will suddenly become economically scalable. The technologies already exist. It is just that we don't have the political leadership and pocket books to allow us to dive in deep enough. We won't until we really can't drill much more. It is shameful that that is so, but I don't believe that "peak oil" itself will be more than a blip.
              This has already begun. The cost of solar panels has plummeted, mainly thanks to China, and renewables are cheaper to install and use. Wind is extremely efficient, and together they cover most weather. Other solutions exist as well, such as geothermal and tidal generation. And as heat pumps are adopted to both heat and cool homes, energy use drops substantially.

              Granted, it will take decades for these technologies to spread to more than just advanced countries, but it might happen quicker than we expect. It's interesting that, in the US, it's Texas that is generating the most renewable energy.

              Texas leads the nation in clean and renewable energy production, and it's largely due to its geography, federal energy subsidies, deregulated energy market and state-run energy grid.


              I say this as someone who thinks that technology will not solve the climate issue, at least not in this century, but these energy technologies will become the norm pretty soon.

              Gassho,

              Ryūmon (Kirk)

              Sat Lah
              I know nothing.

              Comment

              • Matt Johnson
                Member
                • Jun 2024
                • 400

                #22
                Originally posted by Jundo
                Well, I am just writing a section of my new book on "population bottlenecks" and how your ancestors and mine are survivors ...
                Yes to live to sire the next generation is probably the reason our species has not culturally evolved past that of teenagers.... it kinda explains a lot....

                Originally posted by Jundo

                So, I am certainly not going to argue with you that another "bottleneck" is impossible or even unlikely. I also happen to be reading a wonderful book called "Fluke" that makes this point ...
                Yeah I was writing a short story about the origin of Covid-19 and I was researching the cultural revolution and was very suprised by the killing of the sparrows etc... I was also very shocked recently when my good friend who is an oceanographer told me how close we are to seeding the oceans with iron in an effort to capture carbon (he's been peripherally involved in the feasibility studies)... Also a book by Neal Stephenson (termination shock) about seeding the sky with sulphur and Kim Stanley Robinson's book Ministry for the Future illustrate well what happens when we mess with what we do not understand fully in order to pursue our life of cell phones and wasting energy....

                Originally posted by Jundo

                So, it is quite possible that such events can happen again.

                For a "live in the moment" Zen fellow, however, you are planning now for a disaster that perhaps you should not worry about quite that much. It is a little bit like worrying about being in a car or plane crash (they will happen sometimes), so avoiding to travel and visit family and great foreign places. It might keep you safe, or you might get food poisoning from your naturally fertilized burdock or fall into your newly dug well.
                It's not about worrying. It's about having your life oriented with the things that we can be most sure of. Things like:


                Our way of life is built on an ever increasing growth model (lets leave aside the exponential growth debate for a moment)

                There is a finite amount of energy in the ground and there is NO amount of renewables that we can create that can allow us to run the world the way we have been running it.

                The lead up to try to get more renewables online will outstrip our supply of cheap energy. Also Panels degrade, windmills fall apart etc we were never, ever going to be able to support our current level of consumption with renewables...

                Originally posted by Jundo

                The book "Fluke" also makes the point that it is very difficult or impossible to make long term societal projections. However, it also makes the point that sand piles will naturally experience collapse from time to time. So, society is bound to as well.
                Regardless of the cause catabolic collapse is something to keep our eyes on... For me it was like killing two birds with one stone there was no downside to prepping a bit I learned alot about living off-grid, how to do it, what not to waste one's time on... a lot of it comes down to not living too far away from knowing where our food comes from or where our shit goes. Most of the Zen places I trained embodied this ethos.

                When you think about it a Zen priest in a foreign land ought to be able to bootstrap the religion from scratch, including sewing ones robes, making one's bowls, building shelters, growing food, fixing the car (or gutting it to make a wagon to hitch to a cow) looking after the Sangha... etc....

                Originally posted by Jundo

                I rather doubt that "peak oil" is itself a worry. I believe that, as soon as the oil begins to reach peak, the alternatives (solar, nuclear, hydrogen and electric vehicles, etc. etc.) will suddenly become economically scalable. The technologies already exist. It is just that we don't have the political leadership and pocket books to allow us to dive in deep enough. We won't until we really can't drill much more. It is shameful that that is so, but I don't believe that "peak oil" itself will be more than a blip.
                Yeah I get the feeling a lot of people have shrugged off peak oil as some sort of fad or fashion but they seem to miss the fundamental point. It's f**king finite and without it being between $80 and $100 a barrel it's ALL OVER.... over $ and you kill economies under $80 you kill oil companies....not a lot of room for error....If you don't take my advice from a environmental ethics point of view then just take it as a piece of investment advice... over the long term it has nowhere to go but up...

                _/\_
                sat/ah
                matt

                Comment

                • Matt Johnson
                  Member
                  • Jun 2024
                  • 400

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  PS - However, just to be safe ... please recommend a good "how to survive Zombie apocalypse" book that tells me how to survive in a sudden emergency ... which bugs and weeds to eat, how to filter my water, how to build a fire and dig a latrine, how to perform my own emergency medical procedures ... which I will keep on the shelf here just in case. Serious request. I will also make sure that my kids have copies, and I will start reading it at the first sign of trouble.

                  I will make sure to get paperback versions as, likely, my Kindle will not function for long in the blackout.

                  It can't hurt.

                  It might be too late by then, but I can at least throw the book as a weapon at the invading Mad Max tribes.
                  I can't really recommend any single book... And giving you that book to assuage your anxiety would actually be counter productive... I actually think the best thing people can do is actually stop moving around so much, set downs some roots.... spend time outside around and become intimate with the land. It goes way beyond words and letters.... it's about intimacy..... But there a little things which are good to know..... in an emergency supposing you can figure out what is food... dont waste your time on canning.... instead build a solar dehydrator... learn how to smoke food.....Pickling is great...(learn how to make vinnegar hint: arobic = vinnegar, anaobic = booze).... Pay attention to how people deal with food in "developing" countries (the poor will inherit the Earth don't you know).

                  But ya know there is a neat book I picked up.... it wasn't about how to survive in a sudden collapse situation.... It was actually more about how to bootstrap the world in the event of civilization collapse.... its called The Knowledge: How to Rebuild Our World from Scratch by Lewis Dartnell (it's our quickest way back to computers and nuclear power)........ also The Five Stages of Collapse: Survivors' Toolkit by Dymitry Orlov... (I can't speak to Orlovs character... I seem to have a memory of some sort of impropriety)....

                  Anyway I could literally go on and on about this ....

                  _/\_
                  sat/ah
                  matt

                  Comment

                  • Matt Johnson
                    Member
                    • Jun 2024
                    • 400

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Ryumon

                    The biggest problem with degrowth is the demographic collapse. There won't be enough working age people to pay for the pensions and health care of older people. Looking ahead, the natality around the world is decreasing, and I think that by the end of the century population will start decreasing. But by then, it's likely to be too later.

                    Gassho,

                    Ryūmon (Kirk)

                    Sat Lah
                    The biggest misunderstanding about degrowth is that it's some sort of solution that we need to convince people to enact.... It's actually something that the Degrowthers get wrong as well.... they think they need to do a lot of stuff..... And certainly there is a lot of preparation and mental adjustment which is required to not get so depressed that you can't move anymore..... But doing stuff is actually the problem in many cases.... Degrowth isn't a matter of action it's a matter of less action in many cases.... It's about accepting the grim reality of the situation and preparing our communities.....

                    It actually reminds me a lot of what was happening in the early days of Covid.... There were a lot of people who would walk in the café and some would be very concerned about what was happening well others were actually in complete denial.... It reminds me of something John Michael Greer emphasized....... the importance of psychological preparation, which he often calls "facing the future with realism".....accepting that certain comforts and conveniences may no longer be sustainable. This mindset, he suggests, fosters a grounded, resilient approach to change, helping individuals to adjust expectations and find meaning without becoming overwhelmed by loss or scarcity. He advocates for building local, sustainable skills and practices as a way to manage and even find satisfaction in the process of gradual adaptation. You will find yourself way ahead of the game with this kind of mental shift.... You'll be out looking for food what other people are still trying to figure out when the lights are coming back on.... A lot of it is grieving..... and getting that out of the way will allow you to move without hesitation....

                    _/\_
                    sat/ah
                    matt
                    Last edited by Matt Johnson; 11-10-2024, 08:32 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Matt Johnson
                      Member
                      • Jun 2024
                      • 400

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Ryumon

                      First, it's not exponential any more. Second, there is no energy crisis, there is an energy capture crisis. Go forward a few decades to where most homes and buildings will have solar panels, where wind turbines will compensate for clouds, and where other technologies will fill in the gaps. It's no longer an ideological issue, it's a financial issue: renewable energy is now cheaper to install and generate.

                      As for wast, I do agree with you. But, again, population will start decreasing soon; births have stared to decrease, with a fertility rate of 2.25, where 2.1 is the replacement birth rate.

                      The Spectator, a weekly British news magazine, has published an article falsely claiming that the global population will decline, when the UN’s latest projections predict we’re on track to grow to 10 billion. Campaigns and Media Officer Madeleine Hewitt responds with a detailed fact-check debunking the article’s claims.

                      It doesn't need to be exponential to be a big problem......

                      Oh I agree and if my only reason for not having a biological kid was to reduce population then it would make no sense.... I had about 10 reasons which I won't list here... I agree the demographic issue is extremely serious and it is actually part of this catabolic collapse that I spoke of... But it's only a problem because of capitalism which requires that the bicycle keeps going a little bit faster otherwise it slows and falls over..... That's what's causing the problem not the other way around..... We need to have the babies to keep capitalism running..... I voted with my nuts on that!

                      In building my offgrid house on a extreme budget there was one profound lesson I learned on a microcosmic scale which I think is applicable macrocosmically.... It was easier for me to give up conveniences than it was to make my systems bigger to accomodate my endless desires.... Zen anyone?

                      _/|
                      \-s
                      mat
                      Last edited by Matt Johnson; 11-10-2024, 08:34 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Matt Johnson
                        Member
                        • Jun 2024
                        • 400

                        #26
                        Just some photos of me...

                        _/\_
                        sat/ah
                        matt
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                        This gallery has 4 photos.

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                        • Matt Johnson
                          Member
                          • Jun 2024
                          • 400

                          #27
                          Here is someone I follow who thinks we have actually gone past peak oil, we have just been spared the effects for a bit.

                          Supply and demand models of economists are shown not to work for crude oil. If prices cannot rise, peak crude oil extraction was in 2018. This is far past!


                          _/\_
                          sat/ah
                          matt

                          Comment

                          • Ryumon
                            Member
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 1801

                            #28
                            Renewables definitely make a dent in the total energy use. But don't forget that oil is not just used for fuels, but also for fertilizer, to make plastics, and other uses. So even if we stop burning it, it will be pumped for quite a long time.

                            Gassho,
                            Ryūmon (Kirk)
                            Sat Lah
                            I know nothing.

                            Comment

                            • Matt Johnson
                              Member
                              • Jun 2024
                              • 400

                              #29
                              Im just going to randomly post books in my library here.

                              https://a.co/d/i3MpAGx

                              ​​​​
                              John Michael Greer - Green Wizardry

                              part of what is termed the "appropriate tech" movement...

                              (which is the only concession I will give to Jundo's slogan "tech will save us"...)

                              This is a good one if you can forgive the guy for being a Druid...

                              _/\_
                              sat/ah
                              ​​​​​matt
                              ​​​​​
                              Last edited by Matt Johnson; 11-12-2024, 01:45 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Green Ben
                                Member
                                • Oct 2024
                                • 37

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Ryumon
                                Renewables definitely make a dent in the total energy use. But don't forget that oil is not just used for fuels, but also for fertilizer, to make plastics, and other uses. So even if we stop burning it, it will be pumped for quite a long time.
                                There are a lot of renewables options that don't get mentioned as much, but have a lot of potential. Producing methane through controlled composting, for instance. And renewable plant oils can be used for much of what petroleum is used for, while also capturing carbon. Some plant based plastics are also biodegradable, which is a big plus.

                                Gassho

                                stlah
                                Just some random dude on the internet, you should probably question anything I say

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