WHAT IS ZEN? - Thru Chap 1 - 'What's The Point?'

[Seishin]

Looking foward to the rest of the book, after the intro and first chapter.

As to Jundo's questions, as many said Troy captures it perfectly. And on the subject of practice, to me its about trying to be a better person, being aware and accepting my limitations and gaining a better understanding of how I can help others, if only in a small way. And yes actually not gaining without seeking.

Thank you

[Meitou]

What is Zen? We have an appointment to euthanize our 17-year-old family dog who suffers from a multitude of ailments. It helps to realize there is no “we,” no “family dog,” and no “euthanasia.” At the same time, we will cry like babies. That is Zen.

Gassho
Meishin
Sat Today LAH

Yes, this is truly Zen.
Metta to you and your family Meishin, thank you for making a wonderful life your beloved dog and making that heartbreakingly compassionate decision.

Gassho
Meitou
satwithyoualltoday/ lah

[Geika]

"So, what is Zen, and the point of Zen practice, to you as we begin this book?":

Sitting now.

"What do you consider to be the meaning in saying 'no gaining mind' and 'goallessness' in Shikantaza Practice?":

It points to the fact that there's really nothing to grab.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[AlanLa]

I used to spend a lot of time as a hospital patient in my youth, and long before I ever formally practiced Zen I used to adopt a zen sort of attitude to get through those difficult times. Zen was, and still is, the acceptance of what is rather than what you want life circumstances to be. This is also what no gaining means to me. The only goal back then was to get through it, and that was plenty, and it still is. Now that I formally practice Zen, it is a lot of other things, too, such as:
Living according to the Precepts
Zazen - which I did earlier today
The harmonizing of Being and Doing in my life
And all the other wonderful things people have listed above.


I appreciated Fischer's comment that people practice Christianity without a goal because it's just a practice handed down to them, but I am not sure I agree with it. Here in the Bible Belt where I live, people seem to have a clear goal of salvation, of attaining heaven, and in some cases a sense of superiority because of this "guaranteed" afterlife, so maybe Fischer is right if we don't count earthly goals, but there is a whole lot of gaining going on during Sundays here.

[Jinyo]

I agree there aren't enough words to encapsulate what Zen is.
Personally, the biggest draw is the contemplative nature of Zazen - the opportunity
to let go and just be, to relax the discriminating mind and then to live that out the best I can
in everyday living.

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

[Frank Murray]

First of all, my heart goes out to Meishin and family. Having been through that parting experience a few times now with four legged buddies, I can relate so much.

Interestingly, some of these four legged pals have been great teachers in my life. Parallels answering ‘what is Zen?’ have been demonstrated by these friends on many occasions.

One aspect of Zen which is profound to me, is the ‘falling away of the physical universe’ during sitting. I sense it may be a beginner’s pitfall, but I find the support and peace within this realm, where the borders between ‘I’ and ‘other than I’ dissolve, to be profound and embracing.

Gassho

Frank

Sat today, Lent a hand




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[Sekiyuu]

Sorry to hear your loss, Meishin.

I got impatient last month and managed to read the whole book, now I'm re-reading with everyone else. I really appreciate the Q and A format, and the direct and practical attitude. A lot of people have already mentioned the best parts of these chapters.

Both Susan and Norman reveal a lot of unspoken assumptions of modern day culture and modern western Buddhism, while Norman often reveals things which might seem incidental but are really useful for figuring out what Zen practice, specifically SFZC Zen practice, is actually like "on the ground". I only know Zen through books and this forum, so it still seems like an ethereal, non-concrete practice. Their "family style" seems very formal, with so many stages of development and a very clear distinction between lay and clergy. I wonder what it's like to participate in that in a concrete, non-ethereal way.

_/\_
Kenny
Sat Today

[Geika]

Kenny,

When a few of us got together for a retreat last year, I learned that "on the ground" practice with others feels no different from what we are doing. It showed me that online or on the ground doesn't really make a difference as long as there's good teachers involved. It really shut down any previous worries about whether or not I was "missing out".

Gassho, sat today, lah

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[Kyonin]

Both Susan and Norman reveal a lot of unspoken assumptions of modern day culture and modern western Buddhism, while Norman often reveals things which might seem incidental but are really useful for figuring out what Zen practice, specifically SFZC Zen practice, is actually like "on the ground". I only know Zen through books and this forum, so it still seems like an ethereal, non-concrete practice. Their "family style" seems very formal, with so many stages of development and a very clear distinction between lay and clergy. I wonder what it's like to participate in that in a concrete, non-ethereal way.

Hi Kenny,

"On the ground" seems like is pretty different and "real" from Treeleaf, right? Well, like Geika said, it is not. Even sitting right to another person all you are looking at is a poor representation of a person. You don't know where her mind is, what her personal history is, what she had for breakfast. The illusion is that you are in the same room, but it is until you connect with the person that you actually begin to feel the "reality" of the place.

Right now you are having a relationship with us. You are reading my words, you are aware of who I am as I am aware of you. We are connected. We share a zendo called Earth. We are sitting in the same super-big room and sharing the same ground. Same air, sun and sky.

Having been practicing for almost 30 years I can tell you that sometimes "on the ground" are no different from us

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Sekiyuu]

Thanks for the insight! I had not thought about it like that, probably because I don't have the physical group practice to compare.

_/\_
Kenny
Sat Today

[M.C. Easton]

My heart is with you and your loved ones, Meishin.
I think exactly this is Zen: reading all the lovely, wise, and generous posts that have preceded mine, all the metta and kindness to Meishin, I am reminded of why I love Zen so much (yes, an attachment, I’m afraid). It is indeed to help us address the fear of death, as Jishin said. It is also to help us come into the fullness of our own compassion—for those dying and suffering, including ourselves. As Norman said, “Why practice? To relieve suffering.”

But at the same time, there is that “goallessness.” And this is because we cannot actually remove suffering or death or anything else we are here to liberate ourselves from. We cannot keep Meishin’s family from grief and all the suffering that comes with such a loss. We cannot always be unafraid in the face of death, especially that of a loved one. We can only “disentangle ourselves from it, and even appreciate it, so that we can cope and thrive” in the midst of suffering. We have to sit without focusing on that relief from suffering. We just have to learn to let the suffering be there, as an inextricable part of life, and to sit with each other and ourselves through it. And this, for me, is the part of Zen that develops my compassion. There is no goal, so often, because there is nothing that can be done. Except to be kind, recognizing all is one, no separation. As Meishin has been to that beloved dog. As we are trying to be to Meishin.

Gassho
Melanie
SatToday/LAH

[Michael Joseph]

My heart is with you and your loved ones, Meishin.
I think exactly this is Zen: reading all the lovely, wise, and generous posts that have preceded mine, all the metta and kindness to Meishin, I am reminded of why I love Zen so much (yes, an attachment, I’m afraid). It is indeed to help us address the fear of death, as Jishin said. It is also to help us come into the fullness of our own compassion—for those dying and suffering, including ourselves. As Norman said, “Why practice? To relieve suffering.”

But at the same time, there is that “goallessness.” And this is because we cannot actually remove suffering or death or anything else we are here to liberate ourselves from. We cannot keep Meishin’s family from grief and all the suffering that comes with such a loss. We cannot always be unafraid in the face of death, especially that of a loved one. We can only “disentangle ourselves from it, and even appreciate it, so that we can cope and thrive” in the midst of suffering. We have to sit without focusing on that relief from suffering. We just have to learn to let the suffering be there, as an inextricable part of life, and to sit with each other and ourselves through it. And this, for me, is the part of Zen that develops my compassion. There is no goal, so often, because there is nothing that can be done. Except to be kind, recognizing all is one, no separation. As Meishin has been to that beloved dog. As we are trying to be to Meishin.

Gassho
Melanie
SatToday/LAH

Thank you, Melanie. This is a wise and kind and precise post, one I'll be reading again. There are so many perspectives on Zen: one taste, many tongues. I embrace yours.

Gassho,

Michael

ST

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[Jundo]

When we drop all goals, including to live or to die, we transcend death. When we drop from mind all self-imposed borders of coming or going, we transcend birth.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

IMG_0973.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_