7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Tb · 07-11-2009, 08:04 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Hi.

1-6

Very important point in this one is that of "wording".
It is vital to understand what is meant.

Another point is that it is not always good to read translations...
For example the difference between "saying that the students had already spoken" and "saying that the students had spoken".
different?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

**will** · 07-12-2009, 03:50 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6

The Nansen Koan:

This is the middle way and not the middle way. Reality presents itself moment to moment and has no view of right or wrong. There is only "this" or the "action of cutting the cat". If we hold strongly that cutting the cat is wrong, then that is not it. If we hold strongly it is right, then that is not it either. That is Buddha Nature or emptiness. Holding any view of it misses the point. So Joshu put his sandal on his head. Joshu did a "non action".

So, if there is no right or wrong, then how do we do good? That's the question. Well, it's pretty obvious. That's what the precepts are there for.

So instead of choosing to cut the cat, we release it. Because the Dharma has no right or wrong, we can choose to do nothing, or do something. It's not always black or white. In a more modern context we can relate this to Hitler: Would you kill him, hug him, or do nothing? There is no "right" answer.

So, we have the general precepts and manifest compassion.

Gassho _/_

W

**Jundo** · 07-12-2009, 06:45 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Hi Will,

This is so ... from one view.

But almost all the Buddhist and Zen teachers I can think of ... including Dogen (including me too, for what it is worth) ... would say that we must also bear all the Karmic consequences of our volitional words, thoughts and acts.

You may kill the cat, but you still likely have to pay the price in some way.

This came up in more detail when we discussed the Precept on Killing in preparation for our last Jukai (and we will discuss it more when we prepare for our next Jukai shortly).

A Tibetan teacher (Chagdud Tulku) relates this famous Jataka legend about a previous incarnation of the Buddha ...

(In a previous life, the Buddha was Captain Compassionate Heart, sailing with 500 merchants. An evil pirate, Dung Thungchen (Blackspear) appeared, threatening to kill them all. )The captain, a bodhisattva himself, saw the [pirate]'s murderous intention and realized this crime would result in eons of torment for the murderer. In his compassion, the captain was willing to take hellish torment upon himself by killing the man to prevent karmic suffering that would be infinity greater than the suffering of the murdered victims. The captain's compassion was impartial; his motivation was utterly selfless.

I am not sure about the effect of our Karma in lives to come ... but I do know that we likely will bear the effects of our actions in this life in some way. I have a friend, an ex-policeman, who had to kill someone in a perfectly necessary and justified act to save lives. Yet, my friend still carries that with him to this day.

Gassho, Jundo

**Rich** · 07-12-2009, 12:52 PM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6
"An ancient master said, ‘When the great-function manifests itself, no fixed rules exist.’”

Sometimes I push people a little so that they realize their mistake. But I would not kill the cat. I would kill Blackspear. Whether I plan my action or just act there are effects to be accepted. How is it that I can't recite the precepts but know right and wrong much of the time? The line 'Everything I do, I do it for you' comes to mind.

**Shugen** · 07-12-2009, 04:59 PM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6
Dogen said, “Buddha’s action and the criminal action are separate, yet they both occur in one action.”

"not two". Sounds familiar

**Jen** · 07-12-2009, 08:55 PM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6

"Once a person who has committed one of the seven grave crimes is allowed to repent, he is also permitted to receive the precepts. The teacher should allow a person who has repented to receive the precepts, even one who has committed the seven-grave-crimes. Even if the teacher himself violates the precepts by doing so, as a bodhisattva, for the sake of saving that person, he has to allow him to receive them.”

Nansen killed the cat, thus violating the precepts for the sake of his students. Joshu would have saved the cat, even if it meant his own head, for the sake of Nansen. Nansen did not kill the cat to kill a cat. He killed the cat for the monks, Joshu would have saved the cat for Nansen. Nansen sacrificed, Joshu would have. A bodhisattva action on both their parts? I don't know, can't quite wrap my head around it but it seems the whole deal was a catch 22 situation.

As for Hakuin's Fox, this goes to show that even an enlightened teacher is not free from cause and effect- in other words, the karma train keeps on chugging and no one gets off at the platform. This one seems easier to wrap my head around.

**dumm** · 07-12-2009, 09:58 PM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6

Karma or cause and effect seems to be one and the same....happening instantly. You might not recognize them or they might not materialize in a physical manner right away. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they are not happening instantly. Compassion can get lost when we think of things as wrong or right. Sometimes the compassionate actions can appear "wrong"?

Regarding the precepts, once one is aware of the them and the Buddha Way one can not claim ignorance or act that way with out knowing that one has deviated from the precepts. Are the precepts there to help one from going crazy trying to rationalize and reason ones actions as to whether they are compassionate or not? Would we get anything done if we had to figure it out every time? Maybe the precepts allow us to have a sort of reference card?

Gassho,
Dave

**Jundo** · 07-13-2009, 12:08 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Originally posted by Jen

I don't know, can't quite wrap my head around it but it seems the whole deal was a catch 22 situation.

Koans are chock full of those.

**Jinho** · 07-13-2009, 01:34 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Hi all,

First, while it is possible to discuss koans as specific ethical situations, koans were not intended as questions of ethical conduct, they were/are explicitly questions of expressing enlightenment understanding. If one views them literally, then you lose the koan. "does a dog have buddha nature or not" (my preferred rendition since it makes it clear that Chao Chou's "no" is not saying "a dog does not have buddha nature") is not about the relative, or even intrinsic, worth of a canine.

Nanzen and the cat is about being put on the spot to demonstrate enlightenment in a single word/gesture. By the way, Chao Chou's (Joshu's) answer has a couple of references specific to the culture of medieval China. Covering one's head and going barefoot are explicit gestures of mourning. Nanzen is explicitly challenging his students to say one word of enlightenment. So the question is not "how was Nanzen's action ethical or unethical", the question is how can you demonstrate enlightenment in that situation.

But my own unenlightened answers are:

- quickly wrap myself around the cat so Nanzen has to kill me to get to the cat.
- even faster crouch down in front of Nanzen and meow
- (This I have to explain a bit - I think it is significant that the front of this story is that the monks had divided themselves into two groups which were fighting over who owned this cat. THEN Nanzen steps in and challenges the monks. This part of the story would have been familiar to everyone so Dogen didn't bother to state it) - I would have yelled "Nanzen, YOU keep the cat!"
- since disrupting the harmony of the community is a grave offence, perhaps some large gesture of repentance might do something?
However, none of the above saves the cat. But again, it isn't about cats.

In Hyakujo and the fox, it is quite clear, although I think it is more explicit in the version in Zen Flesh, Zen Bones in which Hyakujo's answer to the fox/monk is given as "the enlightened person is one with the law of cause and effect" (emphasis mine). I have never been able to figure out why this is a koan since the answer is right there. I must reread Mumon's conmentary........

These two koans are related, in my mind, with all the times in the Shobogenzo when Dogen said "do you understand XYZ, if not, you better find out". One example is "can you see the mountains walking?" in the Montains and Rivers chapter.

gassho,
rowan

**Jinho** · 07-13-2009, 02:06 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

More from the loquacious one on 1-6
Mumon's commentary on Hyakujo's fox:

"The enlightened man is not subject" how can this answer make the monk a fox?
"The enlightened man is one with the law of causation" How could this answer make the fox emancipated?
To understand this clearly one has to have just one eye.
Controlled or note controlled?
The same dice shows two faces.
Not controlled or controlled,
Both are a grievous error.

(Damn, I just came up with an answer

not great but not bad.......useful.......)

Note for those new to classical koans, there are many which are "either/or" setups where you have to throw out both alternatives, then see "what is left".

Also, there are many instances in koan stories where someone experiences enlightenment upon hearing a sound, a word, hit a toe on a rock, some other sharp experience. However, what is not explicitly stated in the story but understood by all monks, this experience comes after years of wrestling with the question of what is enlightenment.

gassho,
jinho

**Jinho** · 07-13-2009, 02:17 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Again - 1-6

I think the question of receiving the precepts, and in general the dialogue about precepts is one where Ejo is expressing the legalist/literalist mentality and Dogen is talking of the more important intrinsic principle.

Also, I wnat to state that I believe the usual punishment/reward interpretation of "cause and effect" is both incorrect and unethical. I do believe in the interconnection of all phenomena, but not in a human-centered reward/punishment way.

Moving on to 1-7
Here Dogen is support explicitly unethical behavior (verbal and physical violence). However, I assume this was the norm so he is trying to give a "for your own good" spin on it. However this tradition continues to this day, unfortunately. (Not here of course.....Jundo stay calm.....)

1-10 - I have a different answer to Dogen, most times I find that if I can just ask someone questions to better understand their view, both they and I will understand everything better. But this is only a question of timing and technique.

gassho,
jinho
who is working on her first koan "All things return to the one, where does the one return to?"

**Jundo** · 07-13-2009, 02:46 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Originally posted by Jinho

Moving on to 1-7
Here Dogen is support explicitly unethical behavior (verbal and physical violence). However, I assume this was the norm so he is trying to give a "for your own good" spin on it. However this tradition continues to this day, unfortunately. (Not here of course.....Jundo stay calm.....)

Ummm, I have my moments too. :twisted:

As we discussed on a recent thread regarding training even today at Eiheiji Head Training Temple in Japan ... a lot of that slapping and such was peculiar to the atmosphere of past centuries, the attitude of the culture. Do not be so quick to judge that from the "we don't spank the baby anymore" modern childrearing perspective.

Eiheiji and the like are more like bootcamp than a child's daycamp.

So, I do not say it is necessary, and I certainly say it need not be part of Zen practice. Personally, I do not think it a positive aspect of Zen practice, and can easily tumble over to being "hazing" and abusive. However, don't be so quick to make cultural judgments, or forget the very "macho" atmosphere of a men's training temple in Japan (the women have their own training temples ... I am not sure how much of that goes on there). We are dealing with 13th Century Samurai Japan ... not modern Connecticut suburbs.

Gassho, Jundo

**Jinho** · 07-13-2009, 05:50 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Originally posted by Jundo

Originally posted by Jinho

Moving on to 1-7
Here Dogen is support explicitly unethical behavior (verbal and physical violence). However, I assume this was the norm so he is trying to give a "for your own good" spin on it. However this tradition continues to this day, unfortunately. (Not here of course.....Jundo stay calm.....)

So, I do not say it is necessary, and I certainly say it need not be part of Zen practice. Personally, I do not think it a positive aspect of Zen practice, and can easily tumble over to being "hazing" and abusive. However, don't be so quick to make cultural judgments, or forget the very "macho" atmosphere of a men's training temple in Japan (the women have their own training temples ... I am not sure how much of that goes on there). We are dealing with 13th Century Samurai Japan ... not modern Connecticut suburbs.

Gassho, Jundo

Um, Jundo, that is what I said, it was how things were at the time. Maybe, or maybe not. But in studying the text, you encouraged us to talk about how it relates to us now. So I opened with the obvious. Beating people is not a cultural perogative. Dogen wrote some lovely stuff, but nobody is perfect. If you make excuses for the shit, it just covers everything in it.

jinho

Tb · 07-13-2009, 07:48 AM

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Hi.

1-7

Even though you may be an abbot or senior priest, it is wrong to govern the community and abuse the monks as if they were your personal belongings. Further, if you are not in such a position, you should not point out others’ faults or speak ill of them.

One for the road...

When you see someone’s faults and think they are wrong and wish to instruct them with compassion, you must find a skillful means to avoid arousing their anger, and do so as if you were talking about something else.

This is very important.
to put it in Paulo Coelho's words

When you stand in front of god, the only thing he will be interested in is "did you love?"

.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

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