7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

[John]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1.6 I have pondered this Hyakujo's Fox koan before - still not sure if I understand it, but I am also realising there is no one correct response to a koan.

As the old man had to realise, enlightened or not karma binds us all, albeit in a complex way. I like Cleary's remarks on this koan in the Mumonkan that

'Zen practice does not exempt us from what is actually happening; it frees us to see what is really happening. What Zen frees us from is the compulsive need to assure ourselves that the world is as we have learned to assume it is. Zen frees us from the mesmerism of wishful and fearful thinking.

Fischer remarks that there is no precise doctrine of karma and also on Dogen's deep faith in causality. He also says that zazen generates positive karma.

Re: Nansen's cat: In another talk Fischer says it could also be noticed that the monks had different views about the cat because they were divided by their tasks in the monastery, perhaps meditation monks and others who performed more functional work. And as Fischer also commented: when a sword appears in a koan it usually refers to Manjushri's sword that cuts through delusion - in this case cutting through that which divided the monks and restoring oneness.
http://foxyurl.com/oFs

Gassho,
John

[dumm]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-7

I agree with the idea mentioned about how slapping or hitting with sticks could be interchangeably with words or non-violent actions. You must be careful and mindful about how to talk to people, let alone teach or correct them. I work in a college instructing students in Theater which requires a lot of hands on interaction. Sometimes its very easy to get frustrated with a student regarding a task, especially if its a safety issue. Still.....I can't lash out at them even verbally since it doesn't facilitate teaching but.....to be stern most certainly is something I have to use. It allows me to get my message across without seeming angry or disappointed with them.

1-8

You shouldn't scold or restrain somebody if its not your place. The moral question comes to mind for me. If you are listening to your supervisor or authoritative figure and what they say might cause pain and suffering in a literal sense...do you revert to 1-7 to see about other possible actions? Seems like this one could be twisted and used to excuse apathy or indifference.

[Rich]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-9
"Once you have entered the Buddha-Way 2 , you should practice the various activities just for the sake of the buddha-dharma 3 . Do not think of gaining something in return. All teachings, Buddhist or non-Buddhist, exhort us to be free from the expectation of gaining a reward."

If General Rochuren were alive today he may have accepted the gold and silver to pay for water, electric, gas, oil, property tax, sales tax, state income tax, federal income tax, phone, internet, TV, mortgage or rent, food, clothing and on and on. The point is that it is the expectation of gain and not the actual gain that is the problem. Just try to make a living. Success comes naturally when others benefit from your efforts. Kind of like the 'help others', 'save all beings' sayings, I think.

[John]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1.7 It's about using skillful means isn't it? The intention of the master is so important. If the intention is good, if it is ONLY to arouse, motivate and instruct, then strong teaching methods may be permissible. But, again, maybe not in a modern culture where physical punishment is not pemissible. It's not so long ago that it was - I was slapped with a bamboo cane quite often at primary school.

1.8 A mixed message to me. On the one hand it is good not to be too eager to use force against others. But it could also be interpreted as 'passing the buck' - avoiding your own responsibilities. It also occurs to me that Dogen thinks that the hierarchical status in the monastery is important and is keen to preserve it. Perhaps this is good in one way, in that order is more easily maintained, but there are other dangers in rigid hierarchies, though we humans seem to love them.

1.9 Well, I suppose, if everyone would " carry out their tasks solely for the sake of fulfilling their roles " the above problems would not occur, hopefully.

1.10 I like this - a kind of middle way in argumentation. I so love to win arguments - it boosts the ego - but that is what I am also trying to diminish. I suppose giving in too easily only boosts the ego of another.

Gassho,
Doshin

[Kent]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Taigu wrote.

Kent, a good whack does not settle down the monkey mind...the monkey mind is settled down once embraced into as-it-isness, once given the vast expanse of reality as a playground.

Yes Taigu, as-it-isness, workin' on it as we speak. Thank you. Gassho Kent

[Dosho]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Hi all,

I have found myself waiting to comment until the last minute these last couple weeks and I suppose it's because I'm not really sure what to say. Actually, it's probably based in a fear of sounding stupid or being completely wrong about something. A foolish idea to be sure as there is nothing wrong with being wrong! Right?

1 - 6: I did find this section very hard to grasp, but after listening to ZNF's talk I know not to take things so literally. It is from a different era with different meanings associated to various words and Dogen is often trying not to get pinned down to a particular conception anyway. Contradiction abounds! I have thought for awhile now that much of the reason for the ambiguity is to avoid doctrinal debates that occur so often in theistic religions. So, when a contradiction comes up in Zen it's no big deal...at least no one is likely to be crucified!

1 - 7: When I have read passages in various zen texts about hitting, slapping, and even killing the cat I have cringed and let my fear of being wrong take the best of me. I think, "I would have gotten whacked a lot!" However, there does seem to be an effort to remove any thoughts of malice from the monks when performing these actions and hatred or dislike is usually what I assume when being corrected...not always so!

1 - 8:

You should not scold others if you are not in a position to do so.

I think this is where some of our discussions in the forum go astray and feelings are hurt...when we act as teachers and not equals. In most cases I think it is intended as the latter, but can be taken as the first. Yes, to become upset is of our own making, but clearly Doegn is giving much thought to the learner here and taking care as not to be misunderstood.

1 - 9: I think this is to remind us that when we do something it should never be for reward, praise, or respect...we do things because in that moment it is the thing to do. There are too many choices for there to be a "right" choice, so leave that aside. To allow external reasoning come in is of little use, it just is. In his talk ZNF speaks about how we are a new person in every moment, so to feel guilty is irrelevant because we are not the same person. However, he also stressed that we are still responsiblea and all karmic consequences are intact. So, if we do not seek reward we may in fact find it...but if we seek it we shall never encounter it.

1 - 10: This one spoke to me the most and actually came into play for me just yesterday. My wife and I have been having a long standing "cold war" with her parents. For a long time I tried to use logic, thinking that eventually we would come to understand each other even if we did not agree. However, I saw in a flash yesterday that my mother in law had no conception of the disagreement and that I could use all the rational arguments I could come up with in a lifetime and it would change nothing. For a long time I would get very angry, but this time I just accepted the reality of that moment and moved on. That may not be anything like what Dogen is referring to here, but it definitely gave me peace I had previously found out of reach and unfathomable.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Jen]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

I have found myself waiting to comment until the last minute these last couple weeks and I suppose it's because I'm not really sure what to say. Actually, it's probably based in a fear of sounding stupid or being completely wrong about something. A foolish idea to be sure as there is nothing wrong with being wrong! Right?

Dosho,
I feel the same much of the time. ops: Other than the precept study I have avoided the book club and preferred to read quietly in the background. I told myself I wasn't going to do that this time and so far have been glad I have. My foolish ideas are often the hardest to get rid of!


The remainder of this week's reading:

1-8

1.8 A mixed message to me. On the one hand it is good not to be too eager to use force against others. But it could also be interpreted as 'passing the buck' - avoiding your own responsibilities. It also occurs to me that Dogen thinks that the hierarchical status in the monastery is important and is keen to preserve it. Perhaps this is good in one way, in that order is more easily maintained, but there are other dangers in rigid hierarchies, though we humans seem to love them.

This pretty much sums up my impressions on this one.

1-9
This one struck a chord. When I sit, I am not sitting to attain the big 'E', get to nirvana, or any of that jazz. I am just sitting. Goes for everything. I wash the dishes to wash the dishes, not impress my husband with my mad dishwashing skills or what not.

1-10
Many arguments are petty anyway, the only importance they hold over us is the urge to win the argument or best the other in a debate. Half the time the point being argued isn't even important to the arguer, and least not as much as being right is. Don't become a door mat and let the other guy (or gal) always win by forfeit, just walk away, or talk about something that you both find pleasant. It's the price of harmony, both within and without.

Gassho,
Joshin

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-9: Another pretty concrete one. Do it for the sake of doing it. That's the only way. No expectations, goals, rewards or whatever.

[em]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6

Among other things, I read this as saying that there are many ways to be enlightened but some ways can be ambiguous and break the precepts, better chose a path that does not.

The reference to the cat could be read as saying that you can look for a third way, in a sense letting go of the presented options or the presented reality

1-7

In this a read that the instructor must take care not to abuse her or his position and pedagogical imperative but must seek skillful means of instructing and/or correcting which create minimal pain or hurt, socially and emotionally. one example could be reprimanding or discussing someone in private rather than in public. this of course also translates to the every day relationships of our lives.

1-8

This was tricky. Know your place? (skillfully and not blindly I would hope) More than that I take it to mean socially-causually rather than in an institutional or hierarchical sense. A sort of reformulation of skillful speech/action/view. Only say/do those things that are skillful in a context/social relationship.

1-9

Just do what you ought to be doing/just follow the eightfold path, Don't run after rewards/external goals (like enlightenment, money, recognition) - instead drop it. The act/path is in itself sufficient.

1-10

I read this as not arguing for the sake of being right. That, however, must be related to the eightfold path and the bodhisattva vows. Though, you might want to consider that there are options other than arguing to (help) change someones mind.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-10: I think the important part here is that one speaks rational, the other one unreasonable. So there will never be the point, where both points meet, but in fact there will just be a lot of hot tempered talk in the end. So basically just leave it as it is instead of making the situation even worse by arguing even more.

[Tobiishi]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

On 1-6:
Dogen and Ejo's conversation here is one big koan, which says to me: karma is entangled. One cannot see it as a line of cause/effect/cause/effect points in linear simplicity. Karma spreads, gets its fingers in everyone and everything. In the same way, killing the cat is not a straight line with a definite outcome (bad karma) but an entangled action with good & bad together. All of life is like this, with most actions leaning to good or bad, and some remaining ambiguous.

“Cause and effect are self-evident and occur simultaneously,” - very simple words, but the concept is vital to understanding the nature of reality, imho.

On 1-7 thru 1-10:
Everything I ever needed to know I learned in kindergarden.

In our sangha, the boundaries are blurry and move often.

gassho,
tobiishi

[torotech]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-6
Still wrapping my mind about this one.

1-7
Having children, this one strikes a chord for me. Scolding a child with harsh words cut away at the very fabric that holds a family together. However, instruction, guidance, and discipline place a role in strengthen not only the child, but the very fabric that holds a family together. This ties in very well with Right-Speech of the eight-fold path.

1-9
Touched on very quickly, but this is very important. It takes into account that we should not pursue Buddhism as a means of gaining something or feeding the ego. This only serves the purpose of attachment and is counter-productive. However, it is a constant fight for many that can easily be slipped into (especially when one becomes complacent in their practice) and thus it is important to discuss it openly and without hesitation.

1-10
I have a counselor whose method for successfully ending a heated or empassioned argument required one to repeat the others statements with empathy. This would show that not only were you listening to their argument and trying to understand, but that you were trying to view it from the other arguers viewpoint. Eventually the argument could be mutually dissolved.

[tonyyeung]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Jundo Sensei:

1-6, in buddlism, we need to keep our mind on middleway and mindfulness, for me anytime when i decide or make a choice, i will think of what is my choice i will reduce the cause and effect of anything. it may take long time to decide, but i dont want more damage i will make.

1-7, we always talk nice is not because we want to, sometime i think is because sangha should keep speak and thought attitude on balance, we need to control our emotion to face on everything. even talking, argue sometime is not wisely to solve problem. respecting is always work clam yourself or others.

1-8, here is that a right place and right position to do the right things.
1-9, sometime we zazen is not only to reward something, but we do what we should do after we choice our path to believe buddha.



gassho Tony yeung

[BrianW]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Hello all,

Nice discussion of 1-7. This one I have been thinking over quite a bit and I believe that the methods depend upon context and the situation. As a teacher, I have rarely my voice and only use threats in extreme situations (i.e., plagiarism). As a parent, I have perhaps raised my voice a bit more, and have relied more on reward (e.g., praise) than punishment, which is never physical. I might add that during sleepy zazen sessions I would welcome a couple of good whacks across the back!

Gassho,
BrianW