7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

[Rich]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Rowan said:
"Nanzen and the cat is about being put on the spot to demonstrate enlightenment in a single word/gesture. By the way, Chao Chou's (Joshu's) answer has a couple of references specific to the culture of medieval China. Covering one's head and going barefoot are explicit gestures of mourning. Nanzen is explicitly challenging his students to say one word of enlightenment. So the question is not "how was Nanzen's action ethical or unethical", the question is how can you demonstrate enlightenment in that situation."

Thank you for explaining that. The problem is that I just don't know if I can demonstrate enlightenment in a similar situation but it would be a concrete action like grabbing the cat and leaving the monastery. Me and the cat would then just sit together

[Jinho]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Rowan said:

Thank you for explaining that. The problem is that I just don't know if I can demonstrate enlightenment in a similar situation but it would be a concrete action like grabbing the cat and leaving the monastery. Me and the cat would then just sit together

Me and my cat always sit together. She supervises all my actions but especially when I am sitting still. From her perspective, we are waiting together for the mousies............


rowan

[Rich]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Rowan said:

Thank you for explaining that. The problem is that I just don't know if I can demonstrate enlightenment in a similar situation but it would be a concrete action like grabbing the cat and leaving the monastery. Me and the cat would then just sit together

Me and my cat always sit together. She supervises all my actions but especially when I am sitting still. From her perspective, we are waiting together for the mousies............


rowan

So does a cat have Buddha nature or not?


1-7
"When my late master Nyojo 3 was the abbot of Tendo Monastery, while the monks were sitting zazen in the sodo (monks hall) 4, he slapped them with his slipper or scolded them with harsh words in order to keep them awake. Yet each of them was thankful to be hit and highly respected him."

If Nyojo only had a coffee maker the whole history of zen would have been so different But seriously, sleepy zen is sometimes a problem and a good smack in a soft place is not so bad.


"When you see someone’s faults and think they are wrong and wish to instruct them with compassion, you must find a skillful means to avoid arousing their anger, and do so as if you were talking about something else."

This is good advice and I need to practice this.

[will]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Rowan
Covering one's head and going barefoot are explicit gestures of mourning.

Interesting.

Gassho

[Kent]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Jinho wrote:
Moving on to 1-7
Here Dogen is support explicitly unethical behavior (verbal and physical violence). However, I assume this was the norm so he is trying to give a "for your own good" spin on it. However this tradition continues to this day, unfortunately. (Not here of course.....Jundo stay calm.....)I have on several occasions, while sitting, thought a good "whack" might be just what I need to settle my "monkey mind". Having gone through a military boot camp, sometime one's attention needs "adjusting". :shock:

[Jinho]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

I have on several occasions, while sitting, thought a good "whack" might be just what I need to settle my "monkey mind". Having gone through a military boot camp, sometime one's attention needs "adjusting". :shock:

Now if you were sitting at a Kwan Um zen center or a white plum zen center or (I am guessing at this) a rinzai zen center, you could put your hands up in gassho and the kiyosaku person would give you a couple good whacks to get the blood flowing in those upper back muscles.........

But seriously, it is a question of consensual violence. And from the stories, back then (or even now) this is not the case. I just can't understand why they never tried being eloquent with kindness. But there are stories where the roshi is not hitting someone....really...... There is a great one in Zen Comics (zen stories done as 4-panel comics).

Roshi says to student - "Is the two one? If you say yes I will hit you, if you say no I will hit you. Why?"
Student - "Because you're crazy and I'm crazy to be here".

cheers,
jinho

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-7:

When you see someone’s faults and think they are wrong and wish to instruct them with compassion, you must find a skillful means to avoid arousing their anger, and do so as if you were talking about something else.

So this is what I basically take out of this chapter as some concrete inspiration for my "off cushion"-practice.
It's interesting to see the discussion on "harsher" methods of learning. It's definitely a thin line to walk. But given that it comes from true compassion and understanding those methods may be quite effective and righteous, even though they may be cruel at a first glance.

[Kent]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Jinho wrote

Roshi says to student - "Is the two one? If you say yes I will hit you, if you say no I will hit you. Why?"
Student - "Because you're crazy and I'm crazy to be here".
Thanks Jinho

[Taigu]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Dear all,

Very hot here... Nice!

For almost twenty years I received the stick and gave the stick. It very much suited my youthful enthusiasm and taste for intensive training and retreats. Now The tiger grew into a cat, and old age is creeping, he cannot be bothered. And Kent, a good whack does not settle down the monkey mind... the monkey mind is settled once embraced into as-it-isness, once given the vast expanse of reality as a playground.
And to answer a previous question of Jinho, yes I am available for dokusan on skype. If you do have a valid reason to chat, and cut cats of course.


gassho


Taigu

[Jen]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-7
You do not ever scold, slap, beat, what have you to assuage your own anger. It is much like a parent punishing a child. We do not punish the child because we are angry (at least we try not to :wink: ), we punish the child in order for the child to learn.

While times past were harsher, the message is the same regardless if the stick is a stick or the stick is words. Use them skillfully, never selfishly.

[Jinho]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Rowan
Covering one's head and going barefoot are explicit gestures of mourning.

Interesting.

Gassho

Well, Chao Chou returned and someone died. But of course there may be something/someone else he might be mourning for.........

rowan/jinho

[Jinho]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Dear all,

Very hot here... Nice!

the monkey mind is settled once embraced into as-it-isness, once given the vast expanse of reality as a playground.
And to answer a previous question of Jinho, yes I am available for dokusan on skype. If you do have a valid reason to chat, and cut cats of course.
gassho
Taigu

Thank you for the as-it-isness, very good to hear this at this moment.

So what is with this "valid"? Did you think I would call to chat about croissant? Mon Dieu! Anyway, enough teasing. So I guess I should email you to see if my reason to talk is valid? But perhaps I am not so busy as you, I never ask if people have a "valid" reason to talk to me, I just try to help them.

r/j

[Taigu]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

Dear Jinho,

valid has nothing to do with me but with people. The thing is that I teach 44 hours a week and spend a rough 4 hours a day in trains...Just figure out what it means.

I never ask if people have a "valid" reason to talk to me, I just try to help them

.

Very good, Jinho. I do ask people to ask themselves. Once you question the person behind the question, most questions disappear.

Gassho


Taigu

[Rich]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-8
"These were admirable words. He was able to govern the country because of such an attitude. Students of the Way today should have the same attitude. You should not scold others if you are not in the position to do so."

This is about knowing your correct situation or position and acting accordingly. Everything in the Universe has a relationship. From a clear, quiet, silence comes correct action. This is a great time of the year to go outside and sit in a comfortable chair.

[StephanCOH]

Re: 7/10 - SHOBOGENZO-ZUIMONKI - 1-6 to 1-10

1-8:

This is about knowing your correct situation or position and acting accordingly.

I am with Rich here. Know your place, see the situation as it is and act accordingly to the moment.
Easy put to words, very hard to live up to.