The Logic of the Buddhist Tetralemma

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  • Tanjin
    Member
    • Jun 2015
    • 138

    The Logic of the Buddhist Tetralemma

    Hello everyone:

    I recently finished reading a book from the Treeleaf recommended reading list called The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way by Jay L. Garfield -- though not light reading by any means, the book was an excellent commentary on Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika. Together with some lectures on podcast at the Upaya Zen Center website by John Dunne, the book really helped me begin to gain an understanding of the perplexing tetralemma which I first encountered several years ago in the Diamond Sutra. The basic structure goes:

    A
    -A
    Both A and -A
    Neither A nor -A

    One well-known example of this form from early Buddhist literature is:

    The world is finite.
    The world is infinite.
    The world is both finite and infinite.
    The world is neither finite nor infinite.

    When I first encountered these sorts of passages in Buddhist literature, I was left dumbfounded by what seemed to be mysterious riddles. My mind could not accept the blatant inconsistency and violation of what I have recently learned is called Aristotle's law of the excluded middle. Even now, my insight into these sorts of passages comes and goes, but I have persisted in studying the tetralemma because I strongly sense that this form is the finger pointing at the moon so to speak. I've never formally studied logic, so that leaves me at a big disadvantage...

    However, through the years, one explanation that resonates with me (perhaps because of its simplicity) is that these passages must be read in light of the doctrine of two truths and so as an expression of conventional (conditioned) existence v. the ultimate reality. In Garfield's book, the tetralemma is described as a way to say something about which nothing can really logically be said. Another commentary that I found tonight suggests that these verses are a reflection of anhomomorphic rather than conventional logic. While the article is over my head in many respects, I found it particularly interesting because it is persuasively argued that the logic of the tetralemma is the same as is used to accommodate quantum physics. I'm a nerd, so the link between quantum physics and Buddhist philosophy is one that I have found really fascinating and validating in many ways. Here is a link if you are interested in reading more about this argument:



    So, the reason I posted all of this is because I'm really interested in getting others' feedback and thoughts about these sorts of passages, and how you go about interpreting them.

    Gassho,
    Tanjin
    SatToday
    Last edited by Tanjin; 01-21-2017, 04:41 AM.
    探 TAN (Exploring)
    人 JIN (Person)
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40862

    #2
    It is about the many ways of seeing all things (including ourself), and the viewless view ... each as precisely all, all as precisely each, each as precisely each, all as precisely all, each is just each and there is nothing else, ... each and all of the foregoing true at once! ... and, anyway, what "all" and what "each"? That's all!

    Some arises in the old Indian "Neti neti" as to what cannot be said or easily described ... not this, not that.

    Also, the Hua-yen Buddhist Golden Lion may also be helpful ... A teacher named Fazang made a small lion statue out of gold to represent the whole universe and all reality. Then, he asked us to look at it many different ways.

    The lion is empty; there is only the gold. Also, emptiness, having no self-nature, manifests itself through form. This means that since the gold takes in the totality of the lion, apart from the gold there is no lion to be found. This means that when we see the lion coming into existence, we are seeing only the gold coming in to existence as form. There is nothing apart from the gold.

    ...

    (1) The gold and the lion arise simultaneously, perfectly complete. (2) The gold and the lion arise compatible with each other, the one and the many not obstructing each other. In this situation, emptiness [li] and forms [shih] are distinct. Whether one considers the one [emptiness] of the many [forms], each entity maintains its own position.

    (3) If the eye of the lion takes in the whole of the lion, then the whole lion is purely the eye. (4) Since the various organs, and even each hair of the lion, takes in completely the whole lion in so far as they are all gold, then each element of the lion penetrates the whole of the lion. The eye of the lion is its ear, its ear is its nose, its nose is its tongue, and its tongue is its body. Yet, they all exist freely and easily, not hindering or obstructing each other.

    (5) If one contemplates the lion, there is only the lion, and the gold is not seen. The gold is hidden and the lion is manifest. If one contemplates the gold, there is only the gold, and the lion is not seen. The lion is hidden and the gold is manifest. (6) The gold and the lion may be hidden or manifest. The principle [emptiness] and the jointly arisen [phenomena] mutually shine. Principle and phenomena appear together as completely compatible.

    (7) In each eye, ear, limb, joint and hair of the lion is reflected a golden lion. All these golden lions in all the hairs simultaneously enter in to a single hair. Thus in each hair, there are an infinite number of lions. In addition, all single hairs, together with the infinite number of lions, enter in to a single hair. In a similar way, there is an endless progression of realms interpenetrating realms just like the jewels of Indra's net.
    Here is one version ...



    The intimate intrapenetration and totalness of all realized in Zazen.



    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-21-2017, 05:35 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • Jishin
      Member
      • Oct 2012
      • 4821

      #3
      Originally posted by Tanjin

      The world is finite.
      The world is infinite.
      The world is both finite and infinite.
      The world is neither finite nor infinite.
      That's just Heart Sutra stuff.

      Jishin practicing the deep practice of perfect wisdom perceived finite to lack intrinsic self and was struck by lightning. Jishin went on to preach:

      Finite is infinite and infinite is finite. Finite is precisely infinite and infinite is precisely finite.

      Sensation of finite, perception of finite, memory of finite and consciousness of finite are also boundless.

      All finite worlds are expressions of infinite, not born, not destroyed, not pure, not stained, neither waxing or waning.

      Thus in infinite nature, no finite form, no finite sensations, no finite perception, no finite memory and no finite consciousness.


      My finite 2 cents.

      Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

      Comment

      • Tanjin
        Member
        • Jun 2015
        • 138

        #4
        Thank you for sharing that Jundo! I will have to digest that slowly...

        Gassho,
        Tanjin
        SatToday
        探 TAN (Exploring)
        人 JIN (Person)

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        • Jakuden
          Member
          • Jun 2015
          • 6141

          #5
          The Logic of the Buddhist Tetralemma

          There was a great series of talks by Greg Fain at the SFZC on the Diamond Sutra, and they discussed this in one of them. Someone here had posted about the talks and they were amazing. You can find them on the SFZC page.
          Gassho
          Jakuden
          SatToday

          PS though the lion thing Jundo posted pretty much says it all!
          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          Last edited by Jakuden; 01-21-2017, 03:44 PM.

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          • Jishin
            Member
            • Oct 2012
            • 4821

            #6
            There is no enlightenment. This is why it's called enlightenment.

            Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

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            • Tanjin
              Member
              • Jun 2015
              • 138

              #7
              Originally posted by Jakuden
              There was a great series of talks by Greg Fain at the SFZC on the Diamond Sutra, and they discussed this in one of them. Someone here had posted about the talks and they were amazing. You can find them on the SFZC page.
              Gassho
              Jakuden
              SatToday

              PS though the lion thing Jundo posted pretty much says it all!
              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              Thank you Jakuden! I will try to look those up.

              Question for anyone - in the form A and not A (-A), does -A represent everything other than A, or is it more limited than that?

              Gassho,
              Tanjin
              Sattoday
              探 TAN (Exploring)
              人 JIN (Person)

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              • Jakuden
                Member
                • Jun 2015
                • 6141

                #8
                I would think it is infinite in meaning. Including the Not more limited, but also the more limited. [emoji15] I don't think trying to pin it down intellectually is going to be very fruitful (been there done that)
                Gassho
                Jakuden
                SatToday


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                • Zenmei
                  Member
                  • Jul 2016
                  • 270

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Tanjin
                  Thank you Jakuden! I will try to look those up.

                  Question for anyone - in the form A and not A (-A), does -A represent everything other than A, or is it more limited than that?

                  Gassho,
                  Tanjin
                  Sattoday
                  If we're talking about predicate logic, then A is a predicate, a function which can be either true or false. ¬A is the negation, or opposite of A. If a statement A is true, then ¬A is false. If A is false, then ¬A is true.

                  Gassho, Zenmei
                  #sat

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                  • Jakuden
                    Member
                    • Jun 2015
                    • 6141

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Zenmei
                    If we're talking about predicate logic, then A is a predicate, a function which can be either true or false. ¬A is the negation, or opposite of A. If a statement A is true, then ¬A is false. If A is false, then ¬A is true.

                    Gassho, Zenmei
                    #sat
                    I'm not sure we're talking about predicate logic. The proposal that the logic of (Buddhism? For lack of better term) is similar to the the logic of Quantum theory, which on the surface seems to negate so many previously defined "truths," is definitely fascinating to the nerd-brain. I wonder if down the road someday science will find a way to reconcile the two forms of logic... but then I think, it will always be trying to define or quantify the infinite/unknowable into something our physical brains/human minds can process. This would be akin to us being able to smell a sound. We are just not built that way, so we have to acknowledge at some point that there is the ungraspable, even though we are it and it is us, that doesn't mean our minds can define it.
                    Gassho
                    Jakuden
                    SatToday


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                    • Hoko
                      Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 458

                      #11
                      Totally my anecdotal observation but we humans seem hardwired to tend towards binary views. I think it's tightly tied to our need to minimize or reduce uncertainty and it's reasonable given the fact that the more you know about your situation the more likely you'll survive it. So it should come as no surprise that our ancestors were probably worry worts (since the oblivious ones most likely walked off cliffs or into bear caves...)

                      So while we love to think it's either "this or that" (and yeah, in math and science it often is... ) actual human existence is about more than just Republican or Democrat, Coke or Pepsi, A or B.

                      But if we can drop the need for "this or that" it opens up all sort of possibilities.
                      Being a molecular biologist before I went to dental school I once worshiped quite sincerely at the alter of "this or that" but ultimately found it wanting. There's just too many unmeasurables and too many contradictions inherent in the universe. You can't measure how much you love your kids or how much you hate brussel sprouts and it's perfectly OK to hope the new president does wonderful things for the country while simultaneously fantasizing that he gets eye herpes.

                      I too have been slowly going through Nishijima and Warner's translation of Nagarjuna's work and its simultaneously fascinating and, to quote the inestimable Mark Twain, "chloroform in print". (See? Another contradiction perfectly content to exist within the universe.) I'll get through it eventually but if nothing else it's a great reminder of how believing that logic, science, intellectualism and materialism will somehow "save you" is folly. I gave up trying to "figure out" the universe and it's been a much more pleasant experience ever since.

                      Gassho,
                      Hōkō
                      #SatToday

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                      Last edited by Hoko; 01-22-2017, 01:47 AM.
                      法 Dharma
                      口 Mouth

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                      • Jakuden
                        Member
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 6141

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Hoko
                        Totally my anecdotal observation but we humans seem hardwired to tend towards binary views. I think it's tightly tied to our need to minimize or reduce uncertainty and it's reasonable given the fact that the more you know about your situation the more likely you'll survive it. So it should come as no surprise that our ancestors were probably worry worts (since the oblivious ones most likely walked off cliffs or into bear caves...)
                        I think it's more than an anecdotal observation, if you studied biology you probably studied at least a little neurology at some point... our neurophysiology is designed to sense contrast. Desensitization happens if constant stimuli are applied, on both a microscopic and macroscopic level.


                        Originally posted by Hoko
                        So while we love to think it's either "this or that" (and yeah, in math and science it often is... ) actual human existence is about more than just Republican or Democrat, Coke or Pepsi, A or B.

                        But if we can drop the need for "this or that" it opens up all sort of possibilities.
                        Being a molecular biologist before I went to dental school I once worshiped quite sincerely at the alter of "this or that" but ultimately found it wanting. There's just too many unmeasurables and too many contradictions inherent in the universe. You can't measure how much you love your kids or how much you hate brussel sprouts and it's perfectly OK to hope the new president does wonderful things for the country while simultaneously fantasizing that he gets eye herpes.


                        I too have been slowly going through Nishijima and Warner's translation of Nagarjuna's work and its simultaneously fascinating and, to quote the inestimable Mark Twain, "chloroform in print". (See? Another contradiction perfectly content to exist within the universe.) I'll get through it eventually but if nothing else it's a great reminder of how believing that logic, science, intellectualism and materialism will somehow "save you" is folly. I gave up trying to "figure out" the universe and it's been a much more pleasant experience ever since.

                        Gassho,
                        Hōkō
                        #SatToday

                        Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


                        Gassho,
                        Jakuden
                        SatToday

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                        • Diarmuid1
                          Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 45

                          #13
                          AKEMI:Tomatoes are delicious.
                          BENJI: I'd rather eat shit than tomatoes.
                          CHIKO: Raw tomatoes make me gag, but pizza without tomato sauce is yeuch.
                          DAI: Tomatoes? I could take them or leave them.

                          GORO: Trump is the devil.
                          HIRO: Trump is our saviour.
                          IZUMI: Trump has his good points and his bad points.
                          JUNDO: I look at Trump and I see nothing bad and nothing good.
                          Which of these people is telling the truth? Would the others agree with you?

                          This is how I understand the tetralemma to work - recognising that there are multiple truths, all of which are true; all of which are false; none of which are true or false; all of which are true and false.



                          Diarmuid

                          #S2D

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                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40862

                            #14
                            Hi Every-One and All (Ha Ha ),

                            May I offer a couple of small cautions here?

                            For one, in the Zen traditions, it is generally more important to experience such, not so much to figure it out logically. Maybe there is a bit too much attempt to figure this out intellectually here, then to see and know this. Take, for example, the famous drawing of the young woman and the old crone (I think you all know this optical trick, so I do not need to explain) ...

                            Unusual, hard to find toys - magnets, optical illusions and much more...! Where Science meets Magic, and Fun meets Education!




                            Is this an old crone but not a young woman? (Yes, by one way of seeing)

                            Is this a young woman but not an old crone? (Yes, by one way of seeing)

                            Is this both at once? (Yes, both are there even if a little hard to see at once as one)

                            Is it neither? (Well, yes, if we just realize it is ultimately lines of ink on paper or dots on a screen, and there is no actual woman or crone there at all)

                            All true at once.

                            The point is that, more vital and powerful than trying to figure this out philosophically or in a logical equation explaining how all the above truths can be true depending on the circumstance, is to actually see and experience and reallize all the above. Same with the universe as, for example, the so-called "relative" and "absolute" and all the permutations of the Golden Lion. More to be experienced, seen and embodied then intellectually "figured out". We come to see experience and realize such through Zazen more than intellectual ideas or logical equations (although Buddhist writings such as the "Golden Lion" and MMK are fingers pointing us to what Zazen should reveal, like your friend who explains the "optical illusion" to you for you to finally see yourself).

                            Next, there are limitations to how this was used in Buddhism, I believe. For example, Tanjin in the OP gave the following example (I changed "world" to "universe" to be a bit clearer). In my understanding, these four points are not something that would be all simultaneously declared as true by the Buddha or most Buddhist philosophers of whom I am aware (even Nagarjuna), at least in the way you might assume:

                            The universe is finite.
                            The universe is infinite.
                            The universe is both finite and infinite.
                            The universe is neither finite nor infinite.
                            For example, in my understanding, the Buddha first hesitated to make any statement on such questions as beyond his central concern ...

                            "Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will declare to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' ... ?

                            "No, lord."

                            "And did you ever say to me, 'Lord, I will live the holy life under the Blessed One and [in return] he will declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' ... ?"

                            "No, lord."

                            "Then that being the case, foolish man, who are you to be claiming grievances/making demands of anyone?

                            ... "It's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is finite,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is infinite,' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'The cosmos is finite,' and when there is the view, 'The cosmos is infinite,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now.

                            ...

                            "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... are the same...
                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....063.than.html
                            Most Zen folks would also avoid such questions. We might say something like ...

                            If ...

                            The universe is finite ... chop wood and fetch water (i.e., get one with life and Practice)
                            The universe is infinite ... chop wood and fetch water
                            The universe is both finite and infinite ... chop wood and fetch water
                            The universe is neither finite nor infinite ... chop wood and fetch water
                            For example, if some philosophers (whether Western or Buddhist) or physicists were to assert one or more of the above propositions and, if that proposition or propositions (or something else all together) proves to be the case, we are fine with it. If they prove that there are multiple universes or different quantum states, in some of which some or none or all of the above is true, we are fine with it. In any case, we are fine with it ... chop wood, fetch water.

                            But finally, the most subtle point is that, while Zen folks (and others such as the Hua-yan masters) might believe that there is more than one way to look at things, and while we have some perspectives that bend our normal logic and way of looking at things, that DOES NOT mean that anything and everything, no matter how illogical, is true.

                            Thus, in a certain "Golden Lion" sense, there are no dogs and there are no cats because all separate selfness washes away in the pure Goldness of emptiness. We also see a perspective by which everything in the universe flows into and is so interconnected with everything else (like all the reflections of Indra's Net) that, in one way, we may say that cats (and each whisker of the cat in fact) hold all dogness and dogs hold all catness ... the old crones hold all young womanness and the young women each fully embody the old crones. But that is not the same as saying that, in this ordinary day to day world, a dog can literally be a cat at the same time, or that a cat can literally be a dog at the same time. Day to day young women are not also old crones, cats or dogs. That would just be illogical and physically impossible.

                            So, for example, in one sense, there is no Jundo and no Jishin. All washes away in the Wholeness we sometimes call "Emptiness." In another sense, old woman Jundo fully embodies old crone Jishin. Yet, if I (Jundo) suddenly show up in Jishin's house claiming to be him, his wife will be fully justified in grabbing the shotgun and calling the cops! Same for whether the universe is both infinite and finite, if those are mutually exclusive propositions. Buddhist logic expands many of our usual ways of looking at things but, alas, it does not make every crazy possibility true.

                            Gassho, Jundo

                            SatToday (in this universe anyway, not sure about in some other)
                            Last edited by Jundo; 01-23-2017, 01:21 AM.
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                            • Jundo
                              Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 40862

                              #15
                              Ps - I personally feel that questions such as "is the universe finite or infinite" or "if the universe had a beginning, what came before the beginning" or "if there was a cause, what caused the cause" arise from the fact that we human beings are simply asking the wrong questions, and limiting the answer to the wrong terms. For example, we are so used to living in a day to day world in which things seem to all have starts and finishes and finite extents and causes that we impose these mental limitations on the universe. It might be that reality is ultimately something beyond such concepts as start and finish, before and after, created or uncreated or whatever other anthropocentric concept we try to impose. Simply put, we are so used to thinking in terms of vanilla or chocolate, and thinking that the Sundae of the universe must only be one or the other, that we can't see that the universe might actually be strawberry or rocky road.

                              Zen folks really don't care, because we know right where we are: RIGHT HERE, at the crossroads of whatever led here. This is the one place to be right now (where else can we be right now?), so chop wood and fetch water. Since whatever or who ever or nothing at all seems to have brought about our lives, despite all the seeming ridiculousness of it, right here and now in the middle of space and time ... best get on with living it, and live it well! If the universe is vanilla, chocolate or rocky road ... all yummy!

                              I think my Zen Practice has, as some folks seek, shown me the reason and "meaning of life": Whatever is "the meaning of life" ... best to live life and live it with meaning. The reason of life and being born here, it seems, is to live and be here.

                              I sometimes compare our human birth to a baby that finds itself alive in a crib with food and water somehow miraculously put in its mouth by the universe, plus air to breath and all the rest. We infants need not understand all the whys and wherefores ... no physicist, philosopher or Buddhist master has ever been able to explain it all. The infant knows little about the world yet, if it ever will. Not all seems to its liking, and some of it is downright painful. However, like the infant, we somehow trust and are grateful for it all. We accept it, live and grow. We even somehow feel that there is something right about it, that we are supposed to be here, and we feel gratitude. Thus I bow to Buddha, which is one name for all that.

                              And, as the Golden Lion, I look out at the whole world and know that ... like cats and dogs, gold and lions, young ladies and old crones ... I am just that, and all that precisely me.

                              That is enough, even without all the details which may be forever beyond our small comprehension, any more than an ant could ever understand the full structure or purpose of (or even recognize as we would) a jet airplane whose wing it walks across. It simply goes on its way. That is enough.

                              PPS -

                              I too have been slowly going through Nishijima and Warner's translation of Nagarjuna's work and its simultaneously fascinating
                              The Nishijima-Warner "translation" of Nagarjuna's MMK had SERIOUS problems related to my Teacher's advanced mental confusion with old age when he wrote it. Please read my review on Amazon for my comments on the problems. I thought it should never have been published.

                              Last edited by Jundo; 01-23-2017, 03:21 AM.
                              ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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