sitting zazen, timeless time

[JohnsonCM]

Who said Kensho does not matter? Not me anyway (see 5 posts above about the Grand Canyon and the bus trip).

Somewhere there is a Zen story about the sameness of getting caught in a hard rain storm, or walking through a mist which slowly soaks one's sleeves. In both cases, one becomes just as wet and soaked to the bone. In both cases, it is not about a "one time and you are done", but the continuing walk on through life. It is not a one time experience, but a living experience in each step that we must bring to life, in either case. Living Kensho.

I really feel that this Practice is easy, but the "little self" makes it hard with its wants and complaints. It is a bit like my little niece who rides a unicycle (lots of kids in Japan do), and tells me how easy it is once you get the trick.



By the way, what is the point of riding a unicycle? A bicycle or car seems much more practical, carries more groceries, and walking is safer. Hmmm.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - I fixed your spelling a bit.

i agree that its all about the ride, but sometimes it seems like some folks say "the bumps aren't important, as long as you get there" or "the beautiful parts aren't important, they're only transitory" . There is a fine line between buddhism and nihilism, and its important to remember which side of the line we stand on. Its all important, bumps and beauty. beauty in the bumpy parts too. there is a joy to every day life, even the awful and dirty parts, when you take the time to sit with it.

thanks for fixing my spelling, jundo. you are the best.

[Jundo]

i agree that its all about the ride, but sometimes it seems like some folks say "the bumps aren't important, as long as you get there" or "the beautiful parts aren't important, they're only transitory" . There is a fine line between buddhism and nihilism, and its important to remember which side of the line we stand on. Its all important, bumps and beauty. beauty in the bumpy parts too. there is a joy to every day life, even the awful and dirty parts, when you take the time to sit with it.

Lovely. Our way is certainly not nihilism. I sometimes say that it is as a Light which shines right through and illuminates all the mountains and valleys, darkness and light (we are that light too). It is the Mirror which takes in and holds all the beautiful and ugly and in between. It is the Stillness which is all movement and stillness, the Silence of the concert hall while allows all music and noise, good notes and flat.

The beautiful and ugly, sickness and health, life and death, awful and dirty parts and wonderful parts is all what we call life. We just do our best to unicycle through without falling on our butts too often.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Seishin]

I must admit that these debates for want of a better word leave me perplexed with so many seeming contradiction of what exists or doesn't exist or how folk view the reason for sitting, kensho, enlightenment etc. Studying the precepts has given me a better understanding of what it is to be a Buddhist but then something like this throws a spanner in the works and I question why I'm drawn to Soto Zen. Maybe I'm not intellectually astute to follow the plot, so I'll just sit on the bus and try to enjoy the scenery passing the window. Sometime I feel like that old lay farmer who knew nothing of the sutras who became suddenly enlighted but of course we come full circle of the question of if there is such a thing.

Anyway for now I will continue my daily Shikantaza of at least 15 minutes and hope one day I suddenly get it. Oops nothing to get. But at least were back to the op original question.

When I first started sitting, I set my timer for 5 minutes for the first week. The idea was to develop the habit, just to get used to getting out my cushions, sitting, and getting into the routine. After the first week, I went to 10 minutes for the next week, then 15 minutes the week after that. Now, it depends. If I'm using my timer, I go for 20-30 minutes. If I'm not using my timer, which I'm doing more of now, I just sit until I'm done. It almost always seems to be at least 15-20 minutes, but I've managed to hit 30-35 sometimes, too. Without a timer, it feels less like I'm trying to achieve something or meet a goal....I'm just sitting.

To Jishin's point, when I was in college and we would go on road trips, the joke was always: "How much further is it?" "Just over the next hill/just around the next bend." That answer never changed, whether the trip was 15 minutes or 4 hours.

Gassho--

--JimH (SatToday!)

Jim just wondered how do you know when your done? Oh dear that bound to draw a Jishinism

[Jakuden]

I must admit that these debates for want of a better word leave me perplexed with so many seeming contradiction of what exists or doesn't exist or how folk view the reason for sitting, kensho, enlightenment etc. Studying the precepts has given me a better understanding of what it is to be a Buddhist but then something like this throws a spanner in the works and I question why I'm drawn to Soto Zen. Maybe I'm not intellectually astute to follow the plot, so I'll just sit on the bus and try to enjoy the scenery passing the window. Sometime I feel like that old lay farmer who knew nothing of the sutras who became suddenly enlighted but of course we come full circle of the question of if there is such a thing.

Anyway for now I will continue my daily Shikantaza of at least 15 minutes and hope one day I suddenly get it. Oops nothing to get. But at least were back to the op original question.





Jim just wondered how do you know when your done? Oh dear that bound to draw a Jishinism

Hi Toby,
I would suggest that if the discussions become confusing, then for the time being, just concentrate on what Jundo writes. His message will not waver from answer to answer. The rest of us just kick around the ideas like a football, so if you are getting whiplash from trying to follow the discussion, just filter it out. I guarantee that after some time you will develop a better understanding of Jundo's message through the static, and you may even get to know some of us to the point where you get a sense of what perspectives and background are coloring our answers.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Mp]

Hi Toby,
I would suggest that if the discussions become confusing, then for the time being, just concentrate on what Jundo writes. His message will not waver from answer to answer. The rest of us just kick around the ideas like a football, so if you are getting whiplash from trying to follow the discussion, just filter it out. I guarantee that after some time you will develop a better understanding of Jundo's message through the static, and you may even get to know some of us to the point where you get a sense of what perspectives and background are coloring our answers.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Wonderful advice Jakuden.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

I am rather a broken record ... broken record ... broken record ...

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

I am rather a broken record ... broken record ... broken record ...

Gassho, J

SatToday

Oh, but a broken record can keep the dance going ... never-ending. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jakuden]

I had a couple of professors in college that were broken records. I silently gassho to them when I hear their teachings in my head at work, it's like they are still there helping me after all these years!
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Seishin]

Hi Toby,
I would suggest that if the discussions become confusing, then for the time being, just concentrate on what Jundo writes. His message will not waver from answer to answer. The rest of us just kick around the ideas like a football, so if you are getting whiplash from trying to follow the discussion, just filter it out. I guarantee that after some time you will develop a better understanding of Jundo's message through the static, and you may even get to know some of us to the point where you get a sense of what perspectives and background are coloring our answers.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Jakuden

Deep bows for your council. Guess lifeguards are there to help those who stray into the deep end now and then. But this is the type of thread a beginner like me would be drawn to when you consider the original question of how long to sit but like a few other threads, there's a tendency to go off at a tangent. I'm beginning to learn that and guess I should take it with a pinch of salt - a well used phrase in these parts - and not get drawn in by the "combat".

And very true regarding Jundo's words which I have always found consistent and balanced. It was this nature in another sites thread I stumbled on and his eloquent response in regard to a question the validity/trueness of an online sangha and some of the activity here, that drew me to Treeleaf in the first place.

I'm here to learn first and foremost and despite what I said above I've bought my ticket and got on board and dont see myself getting off for the moment.

[Diarmuid1]

I sit each day for ten minutes. These minutes sometimes become longer. They never become shorter. I think the frequency of the thing is the thing. One way of thinking about it is neurologically. There are those who say that sitting develops the connections in the part of the brain that are located right behind your eyes. This is the prefrontal cortex and a highly developed prefrontal cortex leads to an increased ability to pay more attention, to moderate our social behaviour, to sleep better (although I woke today at 3am and sleep is currently evading me). The simple act of repeatedly focusing your attention and then refocusing it and refocusing it and refocusing it develops the connections in this part of the brain.

But maybe this sort of thing doesn't float your boat. In which case sit because you sit and sit the length of time that you sit because that is the length of time that you sit. What does it all mean anyway? What's a minute? Sat in the dentist chair (as I will be later today) a minute is a long time. Cycling up a steep hill, it's even longer. When you're late for a flight, it's hardly any length at all. For me, the secret is to sit the length of time that will allow you to sit every day.

As for satori and kensho and this sort of thing, they're all just words to me. The experiences themselves -if I understand rightly- are just perfectly normal. Yesterday I rode home from work. A guy sounded his horn at me and stared aggressively as he went past. I stared back when he stopped at the lights. He wound his window down and told me what I should have done. I told him why I did what I did. His face softened. He told me why I should do what he said. I said, "Fair enough". We went on our journey. That was enlightenment (enough) for me. As in, a light came on and illuminated the situation. We could have sworn at each other and accused each other, but what would be the point of that? This is like acting in the dark. But when the lights come on, we see what's happening: two guys with two different views who don't hate each other, who are just living their lives and going their ways. We stopped, we talked, we went - not quite veni, vidi, vici but almost.

[Sekishi]

I had a couple of professors in college that were broken records. I silently gassho to them when I hear their teachings in my head at work, it's like they are still there helping me after all these years!

I had a teacher in high-school who taught History and English (so I had her class two separate years). Every single day in January she would say, "Remember, it is JanUary, not JanRUary." Prior to that I didn't need to think about how to spell January, but now even twenty-five years later, I have to pause when writing to make sure I don't accidentally spell it JanRUary.

Broken records can be dangerous!

Gassho,
Sekishi #sattoday

P.S. I hope I didn't just pass this along and infect others with the memetic power of JanRUary!

[Jundo]

But maybe this sort of thing doesn't float your boat. In which case sit because you sit and sit the length of time that you sit because that is the length of time that you sit. What does it all mean anyway? What's a minute? Sat in the dentist chair (as I will be later today) a minute is a long time. Cycling up a steep hill, it's even longer. When you're late for a flight, it's hardly any length at all. For me, the secret is to sit the length of time that will allow you to sit every day.

Happened to see a story on this today by a researcher about what may cause this phenomenon. It did not feel like it took so long to read ... Meditation is mentioned.

From the standpoint of a clock or calendar, each standard temporal unit is exactly the same: Every minute contains 60 seconds; every day contains 24 hours. However, standard temporal units vary in what I’ve dubbed “the density of human experience” – the volume of objective and subjective information they carry.

For example, the density of experience is high when, objectively, there is a great deal happening (as in the case of combat). Yet the density of experience can be equally high when there is almost nothing happening (as in the case of solitary confinement) because that seemingly “empty” period of time is actually filled with our subjective involvement in self and situation: We’re concentrating on our own actions or surroundings, thinking about how stressful our circumstances are or even obsessed with how slowly time seems to be passing.

Thus, the answer to this paradox lies in how unusual our circumstances are. We pay increased attention to strange circumstances, which amplifies the density of experience per standard temporal unit – and time, in turn, seems to pass slowly.

...

The “density” of unique experience is low. And at the end of the day, time seems to have passed quickly. We’re pleasantly surprised to discover that it is already time to go home.

The erosion of episodic memory is the second general condition that makes time seem to have passed by quickly. This is something that affects all of us, all of the time. Our memories of the routine events that fill our days fade with time. What did you do on the 17th of last month? Unless it was a special occasion, you’ve probably forgotten the experiences from an entire day.

This forgetting intensifies the further back we look. In another study, I asked people to describe their perception of the passage of time yesterday, last month and last year. They felt that the previous year had passed more quickly than last month, and that the the previous month had passed more quickly than yesterday. Objectively, of course, this doesn’t make sense: A year is 12 times longer than a month, and a month is 30 times longer than a day. But because our memory of the past erodes, the density of experience per standard temporal unit decreases, leaving us with the perception that time has passed quickly.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-act...time-flies-by/

Gassho, J

SatToday

[JohnsonCM]

Hi Toby,
I would suggest that if the discussions become confusing, then for the time being, just concentrate on what Jundo writes. His message will not waver from answer to answer. The rest of us just kick around the ideas like a football, so if you are getting whiplash from trying to follow the discussion, just filter it out. I guarantee that after some time you will develop a better understanding of Jundo's message through the static, and you may even get to know some of us to the point where you get a sense of what perspectives and background are coloring our answers.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

To be honest, when i first started studying Buddhism, i thought the whole "teacher\student dichotomy" was just bull. I thought that, if you read the teachings and groked them, regardless of how....then there you go. but when i came here i saw the sense of it. jundo and taigu kept me from chasing zen butterflies too much and each of them have their own flavor. i used to say "if i feel like i need Dogen, i ask jundo. If i feel like i need bodhidharma, i ask taigu"

[Diarmuid1]

Thank you, Jundo. I too read something similiar which suggested that when faced with a potentially important experience that was new to it, the brain recorded in HD rather than in standard blurro-vision.

When we are a child, as Watterson Sensei taught, the days are just packed and a childhood summer can turn into all the childhood summers that the adult remembers because so much was new, so much was happening. But as a man of 46, weeks go by in the blink of an eye - with the same route to work, the same work, the same route home and the same home life all working to squeeze time until it is as small as it can get.

Memory is a wonderfully useless thing that we could not live without.

[JimH]

Jim just wondered how do you know when your done? Oh dear that bound to draw a Jishinism

Seishin-Do, I have a very simple answer: I'm done when I'm done.

Seriously, though....my body's "internal clock" seems to work pretty well, and I usually find myself sitting between 15 and 25 minutes. It's nothing mystical or magical, I just sit and try to stay sitting. When it feels right, I take a deep breath in, gassho, and I'm done. If anything feels "unresolved", I can do another sitting later (and I've done this a few times). After all, I think it's the *quality* of the sitting, not the length of time.

Just a funny side note on the quality of the time: I can sit zazen for 15 minutes and not focus on any particular thoughts. I can also sit on the couch for 45 minutes watching a show on Netflix, and focus on too many thoughts....so many that I don't remember much about the show I was just "watching".

Gassho--

--JimH (SatToday!)