sitting zazen, timeless time

[Rakurei]

A lot of folks - including myself as a freelancer or contractor- operator on this culture of work, work, work.

"I'll sleep when I'm dead."
"Grind 24-7".

I find this incredibly common in my millennial generation who have ideals on what success looks like. But in reality - my client's don't deserve a groggy, grumpy, sleep deprived project manager. They deserve me at my best.

Some of us especially become attracted to this non-stop work "image". We become very attached to our image of success and what success looks like. "I'll be successful when ABC happens", or "if only A happens then I can be successful".

But in reality, it's just right foot, left foot. The work should be the focus. Eating our rice - and cleaning our bowl.

The other day I told a client to sure - plan ahead! But don't live 5 years from now, when you had work due an hour ago.

Or as I told a music client - don't prepare the grammy speech, when you haven't even left the studio.

But even those speak on a good vs. bad dynamic that doesn't exist here in the zendo.

The biggest takeaway I have gotten from this thread, has been that zazen stresses there is no good or bad sitting.
I liked this framework when compared to my former vipassana practice.

So, your mind wandered. Beautiful! We watched a part of ourselves and learned a little bit about it. Then we watched it float away.

[Tai Shi]

When I began sitting with our Zendo, I sat alone. I often sat with the beginner videos for 15, 20, or 30 minutes. I had before sat with Jack Kornfield cd s, and Jon Kabot-Zinn cd s, and since I began sitting with my own chronic pain in mind, 5, 10, 15 minutes seemed appropriate. However, even before discovering Treeleaf, I experimented with 20, or 30 minutes of sitting. Today and in past 3 months or so, I have discovered group sitting with Hangout, and this has become most satisfying. I might recommend these sits.

Taishi
std
Gassho.

[JohnsonCM]

so i apologize for the weeklong absence, i have been frittering away my time in trivial pursuits, but have decided to come back, mostly for the illuminating conversation (there are literally NO buddhists where i live, at least not "out of the closet) ones..i am also looking forward to the ceremony on the 15th..here's my question...i have sat this morning, oh, around fifteen minutes and then my adhd got the best of me and i got up....now i've read a post by charlotte joko beck, that says, roughly, to sit on the cushion for even five minutes is a victory....this morning's zazen, while pleasant, was short (i dont get my concerta until 10 this morning)...so, does anyone have an idea of a rough scale regarding sitting, gradual working up of time sitting, etc? i know we can practice zazen even on a crowded bus, with people arguing, babies crying, the DING of the bus as someone pulls the lever to get off...but im thinking of at home zazen...should i start slow, 10 to fifteen minutes, and work my way up to half an hour, fourty-five minutes?

gassho all,

richard


s@2day

depends. if kensho is the goal, then you might sit for decades just to find kensho for the barest split second. or you could find it as soon as your rear end hits the cushion. if you are sitting to sit, then sit fir as long as you are able. perhaps as time goes by, your mind will find it enjoys the tranquility of sitting and allow you more time to be with it. there are days when i cant sit for more than 2 minutes, sometimes its a half hour

[Jishin]

There is no such thing as kensho, satori, enlightenment, practice enlightenment, etc etc. Sitting is pointless. A waste of time.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

I think Jundo suggests 15 minutes daily if possible. I also have a tough time some days, but do not get up before the bell rings, since it feels like good practice not to give in to the comfort that my small self constantly wants. I found that sitting with the Zazenkai recordings and the sit a longs helped accustom me to longer sits. I'm waiting for the day that the mind-tantrums will no longer occur, somehow I think I have a really long wait...
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Amelia]

I wouldn't say there's no kensho. Although I guess everything is empty. I would just say that it's best to let it go when it arises. Release it. However, it is lovely. It provides some memory of that great connection to all, and I am grateful for knowing it, if only for moments. It's not a very complicated thing.

Gassho, sat today

[Jundo]

I wouldn't say there's no kensho. Although I guess everything is empty. I would just say that it's best to let it go when it arises. Release it. However, it is lovely. It provides some memory of that great connection to all, and I am grateful for knowing it, if only for moments. It's not a very complicated thing.

Gassho, sat today

Just to be clear for newer folks who may have misunderstandings about Soto Zen and Kensho "Seeing Original Natural" (aka Satori "Awakening") ...

There is Kensho/Satori too in Shikantaza ... sometimes as "Opening" moments big and small, sometimes as Truth that comes to shine naturally in the bones. More on "Kensho" in Soto Zen here:

----------------

Dogen tended to speak of "Enlightenment" ... not as some momentary experience to attain ... but as "Practice-Enlightenment", emphasizing that how we make Buddha Wisdom and Compassion manifest in our actual words, thoughts and deeds in this life is the real "Kensho".

These momentary Kensho experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination .

The following is important, so BOLDFACE and UNDERLINE ...

Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. The "Grand Canyon" or "Top of Mt. Everest" is a wonderful place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. Scratching one's nose, taking out the trash, feeding the baby ... when we come to perceive this world as such ... is all as much the "Buddhaland" as anything with rainbow colored trees and cotton candy castles in the sky. In fact, the canyon vistas and the mountain top are ever before your eyes even now ... in the trash, your nose, in the hungry baby [(even in Mara!)]... although maybe hard to see. The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm.

Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"?

I once wrote this on such Kensho (Seeing One's Nature) experiences ...

For Kensho is, in fact, special as special ever has been or could be … a sacred jewel, key to the path, life’s vitality realized … nothing other than special!

Yet Kensho is “nothing special” in that each and all facets of this life-world-self, bar none, are vital, sacred, a unique treasure – and every step of the path is central to the path. The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

That is why many Soto folks, like Sawaki Roshi above, think "Kensho Schmensho" ... running after some timelessly momentary fireworky experience of "Kensho" is not True "Grocking the Nature" Buddha-Bus Kensho. He says ...

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

I wouldn't say there's no kensho.

You are right. There is Kensho Schmensho!

[emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

This is important enough to break out the BIG FONT!

What is the single greatest obstacle to folks sticking with Zazen?

That we (our small self) can't just sit still, be quiet, put our tasks down, for even 15 or so little tiny minutes each day, satisfied simply in the Total Completeness of just that action alone.

We human beings so need to RUN RUN RUN, DO DO DO, GO GO GO, WORRY WORRY WORRY, THINK THINK THINK so much that we can't take a break from it all even a little bit, just for a few minutes.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Thank you Jundo. [emoji120]

You are right. There is Kensho Schmensho!

[emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

I have been a witness to your moments of Kensho Jishin, I believe one of them was when your dogs pooped on the floor and you had to clean it up. Maybe those of us who have spent a great deal of time in our lives picking up excrement have a bit of an advantage [emoji23]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[JohnsonCM]

To be honest, sometimes the discussions here are very difficult to process. it can become frustrating when you here folk say there is no this, or to think thus is attachment, or to read a thread with posts that talk about how hard and how simple this practice is. i understand kensho is not the point, that its more of a description of an experience you may have while sitting and that's the name it was given. i understand that there is no point to this practice except to practice. but i also understand that kensho matters. it matters just as much as that feeling of utter enlightenment, or complete despair, or when the tip of my nose itches when i sit. of course there is a point. if there truly was no point to any part of this practice, we wouldn't do that thing. if you could truly just walk the path of Shakyamuni's Way without sitting....we wouldn't sit. As Dogen said, the important thing here, i feel, is to be able to distinguish between the moon and your finger.

[JohnsonCM]

btw, i must apologize for how close the keys are on my kindle. i swear i spell better than this

[Jundo]

To be honest, sometimes the discussions here are very difficult to process. it can become frustrating when you here folk say there is no this, or to think thus is attachment, or to read a thread with posts that talk about how hard and how simple this practice is. i understand kensho is not the point, that its more of a description of an experience you may have while sitting and that's the name it was given. i understand that there is no point to this practice except to practice. but i also understand that kensho matters. it matters just as much as that feeling of utter enlightenment, or complete despair, or when the tip of my nose itches when i sit. of course there is a point. if there truly was no point to any part of this practice, we wouldn't do that thing. if you could truly just walk the path of Shakyamuni's Way without sitting....we wouldn't sit. As Dogen said, the important thing here, i feel, is to be able to distinguish between the moon and your finger.

Who said Kensho does not matter? Not me anyway (see 5 posts above about the Grand Canyon and the bus trip).

Somewhere there is a Zen story about the sameness of getting caught in a hard rain storm, or walking through a mist which slowly soaks one's sleeves. In both cases, one becomes just as wet and soaked to the bone. In both cases, it is not about a "one time and you are done", but the continuing walk on through life. It is not a one time experience, but a living experience in each step that we must bring to life, in either case. Living Kensho.

I really feel that this Practice is easy, but the "little self" makes it hard with its wants and complaints. It is a bit like my little niece who rides a unicycle (lots of kids in Japan do), and tells me how easy it is once you get the trick.



By the way, what is the point of riding a unicycle? A bicycle or car seems much more practical, carries more groceries, and walking is safer. Hmmm.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - I fixed your spelling a bit.

[Jishin]

To be honest, sometimes the discussions here are very difficult to process. it can become frustrating when you here folk say there is no this, or to think thus is attachment, or to read a thread with posts that talk about how hard and how simple this practice is. i understand kensho is not the point, that its more of a description of an experience you may have while sitting and that's the name it was given. i understand that there is no point to this practice except to practice. but i also understand that kensho matters. it matters just as much as that feeling of utter enlightenment, or complete despair, or when the tip of my nose itches when i sit. of course there is a point. if there truly was no point to any part of this practice, we wouldn't do that thing. if you could truly just walk the path of Shakyamuni's Way without sitting....we wouldn't sit. As Dogen said, the important thing here, i feel, is to be able to distinguish between the moon and your finger.

How could you possibly find Kensho Smencho or Enlightenment without eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind? Without sight, sound, smell, taste, tough or object of mind? Without realm of sight, realm or sound, realm of smell, realm of taste, realm of touch or realm of consciousness?

Kensho Smencho and Enlightment are ideas, objects of the mind, neither born or destroyed, neither waxing or waning. Chase the idea and the idea is born. Don't chase the idea and the idea is destroyed.

Don't chase the shadow and you catch the shadow.

There is neither Kensho Smencho or Enlightment or no Kensho Smencho and Enlightment. It just is. It's just Kensho Smencho, its just Enlightment, right under your feet. But if you look for it, it's gone.

That's why its called Kensho Smencho and Enlightment!

My deluded 2 cents.



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Your niece is absolute gorgeous!



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_