What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

**Jundo** · 05-27-2008, 05:22 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Originally posted by Shui_Di

Hi Jundo....

I want to ask you about What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perspective?
Because it's quite confusing for me.... (There are some versions about its interpretations)

Gassho, Shui Di

Hi Shui Di,

A BIG question, and just right before I was gonna head for bed! :wink:

Well, Karma means "actions" or "deeds", and means that all our actions (and specifically our volitional words, thoughts and deeds) have effects.

Now, in its most traditional meaning in Buddhism, it was believed that "Karma" would work in some way to determine one's rebirth after death, whether as a god or human being or fox, as a Bodhisattva or hungry ghost, in a good place or in some Buddhist hell. As I said, this is "Karma" in its most traditional form, and is actually a belief originating in Hinduism and long pre-dating Buddhism. It is probably what Shakyamuni Buddha himself originally taught, which is not so surprising as he himself was a man living in ancient India, believing that the universe functioned in the way that ancient Indians of his time believed.

Buddha also taught that he had found the means to "cut off" Karma, and that (because he had done so and, thus, was a "Buddha"), he would be reborn no more.

Through the centuries, Ch'an/Zen teachers have had an ambivalent relationship with such a traditional view of Karma, because our way tends to emphasize Practice in the "here and now". So, we are not as focused on after-death and "rebirth" as many other types of Buddhist. However, that varied from teacher to teacher, and some Ch'an/Zen teachers were very traditional in their view of Karma and rebirth. In the case of Master Dogen, he seemed to have an ambivalent relationship, meaning that sometimes in his talks he would say something indicating a belief in Karma and rebirth ... but most of the time, he seemed to ignore the subject completely.

Many modern teachers of Zen, particularly in America and Europe, seem to have moved to a more modern interpretation of Karma and rebirth (although many many are still pretty traditional on the subject).

Now, I teach a rather "modern" and skeptical version of "Karma" and "rebirth" (I tend to doubt the literal view of reincarnation, or an overly mechanical system of "Karma" whereby good acts bring good effects, bad acts bring bad effects) ... yet I think I am faithful to the Buddha's message. Let me explain how:

In my case, I teach that, yes, our volitional words, thoughts and deeds do have effects. They have effects on our life now, on our families and the other people around us, on the world we live in. "Good" acts are those that are meant to be harmless, helpful and healthful, and tend (no guarantees ... life is very complicated) to have beneficial effects. Harmful, angry, greedy actions tend to do damage to ourselves, other people and the world. I teach that, in that way, we can often help make a bit of "heaven" or "hell" around us though our own behavior. We can choose to act like compassionate and wise beings (Bodhisattvas) or greedy and angry beasts (hungry ghosts and sly foxes) in this life.

As was discussed yesterday on another thread, I believe that (in one sense) all of us are "reborn" instant by instant by instant. I am not the same Jundo who began writing this message to Shui Di. That is one form of "rebirth" that I am sure of. I also believe that something about us "continues" in some way after we "die", although I dare not say what or how. My actions now will have ramifications long after I am dead. But I do not really care what happens after I die, and will allow that to take care of itself. I will live my life now as best I can, and let the universe handle the rest. I will try to be a good husband, father and friend now, and do no harm now ... and that is enough.

Finally, I also believe that in our Zen Practice, we realize a state in which "Karma" is "cut off" and "rebirth" is no more ... in other words, a perspective where there can be no harm (a state where there is no "self" to do harm, no "self" to be harmed), and of "no birth no death" (in Zazen, we drop those concepts). At the very least, that "instant by instant by instant" rebirth is "cut off", with "no comment" by me on the effect of other forms of "rebirth" (after we get hit by a train "rebirth").

So, if you look closely at my view of Karma and "Rebirth", I hope you see that it is faithful to what Shakyamuni Buddha taught ... although maybe we differ in our interest on what happens after the heart in our chests stops beating.

Now, I am off to bed!

Gassho, Jundo

**Longdog** · 05-27-2008, 07:55 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Glad you brought this up Shui_Di.

There was some discussion a while ago about it and how it only relates to volitional acts. I was sure I'd heard/read different and now I know where I got that from.

In Rev. Master Jiyu Kennets 'Zen is Eternal Life' she has translated some of Dogen's writing and in her translation of the 'Shushogi' amongst other things she translates:

"None of us have more than one body in this life time, therefore it is indeed tragic to lead a life of evil as a result of heresy for it is impossible to escape from karmic consequence if we do evil on the assumption that, by not recognising an act as evil, no bad karma can accrue to us."

I've bolded that bit. To me it suggests as I'd previously understood that an act doesn't have to be volitional for there to be a karmic consequence. Ignorance of it's 'wrongness' or outcome is no excuse? I'd be interested in other translations of it.

It also raises a previous concern over karma rebirth in an earlier paragragh:
"It is very difficult to be born as a human being and equally difficult to find Buddhism however, because of the good karma we have accumulated, we have recieved the exceptional gift of a human body ...."
This sits uneasily with me as it seems to go back to relating karma from one life determining the outcome of the next, and supposes that human form is above others and you have to be good to get it, or does it?

I guess I'm a bit of a black and white thinker at heart. I can quite happily go along focussing on the now until this topic raises it's head and different people/sources/organisations say different things or just sit on the fence and it just bugs me.

ops:

There are many other things in there that I question. May be I should read less and sit more as there are also lots of referrences to erudition slowing ones training

I guess I need to just cease from evil, do good, and see what side of the fence I fall of eventually

In gassho, Kev

**lindabeekeeper** · 05-27-2008, 08:28 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Originally posted by Longdog

I've bolded that bit. To me it suggests as I'd previously understood that an act doesn't have to be volitional for there to be a karmic consequence. Ignorance of it's 'wrongness' or outcome is no excuse? I'd be interested in other translations of it.

Hi Kev, I've heard that, too. The way I was taught, the intention helps to mitigate the bad karmic consequence but does not erase it entirely. (This make sense to me. When I unintentionally hurt someone, the one I hurt may not forget about it so easily.) This gives the practitioner the incentive to develop Wisdom (prajna I guess) so that pure action results from pure intention. So being a slug with good intentions doesn't get us off the hook. :wink:

Jundo, Is this a correct interpretation?

Gassho,

Linda

**Jundo** · 05-28-2008, 03:29 AM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Originally posted by lindabeekeeper

Originally posted by Longdog

I've bolded that bit. To me it suggests as I'd previously understood that an act doesn't have to be volitional for there to be a karmic consequence. Ignorance of it's 'wrongness' or outcome is no excuse? I'd be interested in other translations of it.

Hi Kev, I've heard that, too. The way I was taught, the intention helps to mitigate the bad karmic consequence but does not erase it entirely. (This make sense to me. When I unintentionally hurt someone, the one I hurt may not forget about it so easily.) This gives the practitioner the incentive to develop Wisdom (prajna I guess) so that pure action results from pure intention. So being a slug with good intentions doesn't get us off the hook. :wink:

Jundo, Is this a correct interpretation?

Gassho,

Linda

Hi Linda,

These discussions on "Karma" can become as tangled as discussions about "what is a 'sin'" in Christianity. Depends on how you read your Bible/Sutra, and different folks and clergy will teach all manner of things.

As I said about Dogen, sometimes he would make a comment in passing (like those cited by Kevin) that indicate he had some traditional idea of "Karma" and "Rebirth" ... but most of the time, compared to most schools of Buddhism that teach that a central point of Buddhist practice is to "get a good rebirth" (e.g., Tibetan Buddhism or Pure Land Buddhism) ... he seemed to completely ignore the subject. It was not a concern to him. In fact, as he was a person of flesh and blood like you and me ... I do not think he had much more of an idea about what happens when we die than you and I do. He was a man of the 13th Century, educated in conservative Buddhist institutions ... no surprise he sometimes spoke of the universe functioning in the ways people thought back then (just like, someday, people in the 28th Century might laugh at us .... "Ha ha ha, can you believe that in the 21st Century folks believed in "Darwin").

I, for one, do not expect my teachers to be always right and fully informed on every darn subject, just that they be right on most subjects ... and on the subjects that matter the most. I do not ask my biology teacher in school to teach me geography. This is true whether it is Dogen, Nishijima or the Buddha himself. (When I write this opinion of mine sometimes, it is really shocking to some folks, as if we expect our saints, religious teachers and heroes to be perfect in all ways. I settle for "gifted in the most important ways".)

Myself, I do not teach that there is no "rebirth" ... I teach that "I do not know for sure, and it is not vital to my Practice". I will let what happens take care of itself, because it will anyway.

Now, instead of teaching about "Rebirth", Dogen spent most of his time teaching about "No Birth No Death", which is not really the same thing (maybe, with his "simultaneously true" perspectives, he was teaching both at once). "No Birth No Death" is also something that we all can taste and experience for ourselves, and thus verify for ourselves in this world. It is more that, when we drop from mind during Zazen all thought of "Birth" "Death" "Self" "Other" "Kevin" "Linda" "Bees" "Trees" "Blades of Grass" ... and then even drop that from mind too ... well, I will let you figure out the rest for yourself. It is more the idea that we never "die" because we were never "born" ... and so long as the stars are shining, there is shining ... that clouds come and go, but the sky remains. (I say too much about something for which not much can or should be said).

Now, on to Linda's question about 'volitional acts'. I will turn to my training as a lawyer: There are some acts that are not done with intent in life that we are still responsible for. For example, if you do not maintain the brakes on your car just out of carelessness, and your car thus crashes and hurts someone, you are still responsible even though it was not your intent to hurt someone. Yes, we should apply the same idea to Karma, our thoughts, words and deeds. We should take responsibility not to do harm through our carelessness and inattention, and to develop Wisdom and care for that purpose. Thus my standard for the Precepts is [EMPHASIS ADDED]:

Live, as you can, so as not to harm, healthful and helpful to others, not to harm, healthful and helpful to yourself ... and to know that there is ultimately no difference.

Gassho, Jundo

**Bansho** · 05-28-2008, 11:23 AM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Hi guys,

May I add a few vines to the thicket?

Dogen Zenji was extremely well versed in the Suttas, so it’s fairly safe to rule out the possibility that he was unaware of the Buddha's definition of karma:

Originally posted by Shakyamuni Buddha

"Volition (cetan?), o monks, is what I call action (kamma), for through volition one performs the action by body, speech or mind."

In the glossary of the Shobogenzo Zuimonki as translated by Ven. Shohaku Okumura, he cites the following definition of karma from Ven. Nyanatiloka’s Pali Buddhist dictionary:

Originally posted by Ven. Nyanatiloka

kamma: (Sanskrit : karma): 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetan?) and their concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These kammical volitions (kamma cetan?) become manifest as wholesome or unwholesome actions by body (k?ya-kamma), speech (vac?-kamma) and mind (mano-kamma). Thus the Buddhist term 'kamma' by no means signifies the result of actions, and quite certainly not the fate of man, or perhaps even of whole nations (the so-called wholesale or mass-kamma), misconceptions which, through the influence of theosophy, have become widely spread in the West.

As can be seen from the above, the ‚modern‘ definition above used by Ven. Shohaku Okumura (who is just as good a representative of contemporary Soto Zen as any, I suppose) doesn’t differ in the least from the ‚traditional‘ definition attributed to Shakyamuni Buddha.

As for the citations Kev quoted, they have to be looked at in their historical context. The fact that those particular ones were from the Shushogi doesn’t make things easier, as Dogen Zenji didn’t write that treatise directly, but rather it was compiled from bits and pieces of various chapters of the Shobogenzo by the Sotoshu. When looking at that citation, we should keep in mind that Dogen Zenji never tired of criticizing the ‚naturalist‘ view, which said that „all things were generated spontaneously without karmic causation; the devastating implication of this was that spiritual efforts were dispensable“ (Hee-Jin Kim). Most certainly Dogen Zenji was aiming here at eradicating that view amongst his followers. In any case, if you look at the translation of the Shushogi provided directly by the Sotoshu, it becomes clear that an argument for non-volitional karma is not the intent.

Originally posted by Sotoshu version of Sushogi

Understand that in this birth we have only one life, not two or three. How regrettable it is if, falling into false views, we are subject to the consequences of evil deeds. Because we think that it is not evil even as we do evil, and falsely imagine that there will be no consequences of evil, there is no way for us to avoid those consequences.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/scbs/sztp ... shogi.html

What we understand shapes our thoughts, which in turn shapes our speech and our actions, therefore I think it’s vital to undersand karma correctly. I'm convinced that Dogen Zenji would never have advocated a view which leads to harm - and you don’t have to think about it very long to see the harmful implications of a view of karma which is non-volitional.

Anyway, hope that helps.

Gassho
Ken

**Longdog** · 05-28-2008, 11:31 AM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Thanks for that input fron other sorces Ken

Not sure that the sotoshu version's last sentence contradicts the one I posted though although the others do.

What we can be sure of though is if we sit and follow the precepts the lotus will blossom.

In gassho, Kev

**Dojin** · 05-28-2008, 06:10 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

i for one think that karma is irrelevant.
at least when it comes to the consideration of action. i never think " this will be goodbad karma "
i personally think that with practice one develops wisdom and compassion which is inherent in us all.
and besides karma is such a complex thing that one can not truly understand it or even if he does, karma could never be predicted.
there for i think it is irrelevant in a way.

i strongly agree with Jundo. we should live out life with compassion and do our best to avoid harm, while trying to do what we can to help others. ( Jundo you say it much better!

).

since wisdom and compassion arise in us as we practice and live our lives, i think we should just act without giving much thought to consequences, and trust that we are doing the right thing.

**Jundo** · 05-28-2008, 07:46 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Originally posted by Kenneth

Hi guys,

May I add a few vines to the thicket?

Dogen Zenji was extremely well versed in the Suttas, so it’s fairly safe to rule out the possibility that he was unaware of the Buddha's definition of karma:

Originally posted by Shakyamuni Buddha

"Volition (cetan?), o monks, is what I call action (kamma), for through volition one performs the action by body, speech or mind."

...

Gassho
Ken

Hi Ken,

You are right, but it is still a very nebulous subject.

What is "Kamma", what does it do, how does it work??? ... Is it just "cause" as in "cause & effect" in a physical sense? Is it related to a "good rebirth" (and is there such a thing)? Is there a one-to-one relationship of your "bad" actions in a previous life to the "bad" things that happened to you last week? It is not much of a concern to me, nor should it be.

I say that we should just concentrate on "not doing harm" here and now, and let the definitions and ramifications take care of themselves. After all, if I do something nice now and it has effect on my future life, or if I do something nice now and it has no effect except on the people around me ... well, in either case, I still have done something nice (same for doing things not so nice).

But on your point about "volition", I would assert the carelessness and inaction can rise to a degree that constitutes volition and action. A case in point is the one I raised: Being so careless and uncaring as to not bother to fix the breaks on your car, or to drive while intoxicated, is clearly selfish and volitional ... even if there is no specific intent to hurt anyone. I think it is "bad karma" ... not to mention, usually a criminal offense if you kill someone accidentally in that way.

Gassho, Jundo, Buddhist Lawyer

**Ryumon** · 05-28-2008, 09:48 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Originally posted by Zen

i for one think that karma is irrelevant.

I think karma is extremely relevant, but not in the traditional (or the Sharon Stone) way. I think it is a wonderful metaphor for how our actions have repercussions beyond our understanding.

Take a simple situation - you say mean words to someone today, and ten years later, they remember those words, and you have consequences. Or a more vague situation - today, you ate in a restaurant, and, perhaps, talked more than usual to the waiter (or waitress), who you know because you eat in that restaurant often. Perhaps you said something that resonated with them - something loosely related to your dharma practice, something that, months later, will ripen and lead that person to question their life and to, perhaps, make a choice.

There are millions of examples; our lives are endlessly branching trees of decisions made and not made, of roads taken or not, and each branch could have led to an entirely different life...

Kirk

**Charles** · 05-29-2008, 03:42 AM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Well, I just wrote a post about karma, but it is so absurdly long that I'm not going to post it. Instead, I'll just add this point to the discussion:

I think that talking about whether or not karma is volitional doesn't make a lot of sense. Volition is problematic for (at least) two reasons.

One is that it is often difficult to distinguish between a volitional action and a non-volitional action. And even if we can distinguish, a volitional action can cause suffering; a volitional action can alleviate suffering; a non-volitional action can do both as well. They both have actual consequences. What do we get out of calling the consequences of a volitional action 'karmic' but not those of a non-volitional action?

The other is that we always act on the basis of imperfect understanding and incomplete information. An action that is based on compassion or 'right' volition can have terrible consequences and cause suffering for many people. An action that is aimed at badly harming a person can have the opposite effect and do that person a lot of good. So we can't actually establish a direct, simple cause-and-effect relationship between volition and outcome. I mean, it's clear that volition precedes action which precedes outcome, but the nature of the volition doesn't cause the consequences in any simple way. So what does it mean to say that 'good' actions based on 'good' volition leads to 'good' karma, if the action hurts dozens of people?

Originally posted by Kenneth

I'm convinced that Dogen Zenji would never have advocated a view which leads to harm - and you don’t have to think about it very long to see the harmful implications of a view of karma which is non-volitional.

Ken,

I don't disagree; but a volitional view of karma may have just as many harmful implications and be just as problematic.

--Charles

**Longdog** · 05-29-2008, 07:54 AM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

I'm sure you're right Charles, the effects of our actions are too complex to boil down that simply, whether volitional or not, the old chaos theory variables can mean that an act that seems beneficial at that moment for that person could indirectly lead to something not so beneficial somewhere else.

As you say we all come from a certain view point and level of understanding that isn't perfect. I'd say our background: upbringing, class, education, culture, life beliefs, all alter what we personally see as acceptable or unacceptable and that the boundaries of acceptable or not are flexible depending on the situation you find yourself in.

As Jundo said we can only concentrate on not doing harm at each moment, it's not something to worry about, and may be in affect irrelevant, but it is interesting to discuss as you can't seem to get away from questions about it and the big ''R' in Buddhism.

In gassho, Kev

**Bansho** · 05-29-2008, 02:24 PM

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Hi Jundo,