What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

[Bansho]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

This is the kind of misunderstanding of karma that pisses me off:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7423089.stm

Yep. Exactly.

Gassho
Ken

[Jundo]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Hi Jundo,

What is "Kamma",

Karma is volitional activities of body, speech and mind which are conditioned by greed, hate and ignorance.

what does it do

Well, in the case of unwholesome volitional activity, the answer is obvious: it causes suffering.

Hi Ken,

Most of my questions were rhetorical, emphasizing the fact that opinions differ even within Buddhism on just what "Karma" is and how it works. Your definitions, Ken, are exactly right according to traditional teachings ... but when you go beyond those very general definitions you state in trying to nail these things down, it all becomes nebulous pretty fast. I agree through and through with certain definitions of "Karma", but I have great reservations about other ways of looking at "Karma".

(1) For example, If you are talking about just the basic principle that our actions motivated by greed, hate and ignorance will tend to cause (even then, I do not see a one-to-one mechanical relationship, and often greedy or hateful actions will have unexpected beneficial results together with harm) suffering for ourselves and others as their direct effect ... I am with you completely.

(2) But if you say that a hateful action will, through some unspecified cosmic mechanism, have effect on my rebirth after I am dead, I will express my most great doubt. It could be, but I see no evidence for that. Anyway, it is not important to my practice.

(3) If you even say that an action now will necessarily sit in wait somehow, to work its retribution on me years from now ... I will say that that is sometimes the case (that sometimes something we did years ago will come back to haunt us), but often it is not the case at all. In fact, my actions are often redirected or canceled out by other surrounding circumstances that are spontaneous, random, accidental. Sometimes bad things just happen to good people, and sometimes bad people walk away without a care (sometimes ... I think that, generally, folks motivated my greed, anger and ignorance will almost always muck up their lives). The waves created by the stones we toss in the pond often just blend together, and fade away. Again, it is not important to my practice: Whether the things that happen in this world "happen for a reason" and reflect a certain "cosmic justice" ... or whether many things don't happen for any reason at all and there is no "justice" sometimes ... no matter.

I say that (1) is perfectly sensible and visible to my eyes, but (2) and (3) leave me unconvinced.

Today I read in the paper a tragic story about a toddler that was killed by a drunk driver, and a beautiful family that was physically and emotionally crippled by the accident. It is heart-breaking. They encountered that drunk driver seemingly by accident on a dark highway.

Now, if you will say to me that the child and the family somehow "brought" the tragedy onto themselves by something they did yesterday or 100 lifetimes ago, I will say maybe ... but I do not think so.

But if you ask me whether I trust life to play out as it does, a mixture of smiles and tears ... I will say that I trust it completely.

Gassho, Jundo

[Bansho]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Dear Harry,

Dear Kenneth et al,

Can you recommend any good literature dedicated to the subject of karma?

Regards,

Harry.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of any specific book dedicated to the subject, although serious Buddhist literature of all kinds essentially describe what I've summed up in my posts. Sadly enough, 'popular' understanding tends to differ... Apart from that, I'm most indebted to 2 fellow Soto Zen practitioners (one of whom was one of the last students of Uchiyama Roshi) with whom I've had discussions and who've greatly helped deepen my own personal understanding.

Gassho
Ken

[Bansho]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Hi Jundo,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'd be happy to sign that one, so there's no need for me to address each point individually. Indeed, many of the things you've listed have nothing to do with karma. Whether they exist at all is a completely different subject. I think a lot of people get confused by thinking that everything that happens must somehow be related to karma, which is clearly not the case. Many things happen to 'good' and 'bad' people which have nothing to do with karma. The way in which those affected react to those events, the actions they take as a consequence - that is their karma.

Gassho
Ken

[Charles]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

The way in which those affected react to those events, the actions they take as a consequence - that is their karma.

Ken,

Supposing a bad situation in which a person responds with compassion, in a way intended to make things better and reduce suffering for everyone involved; but through no fault of their own, due to imperfect knowledge of the situation, their actions cause suffering rather than relieve it. On the view of Karma you're talking about, how is this to be understood?

By the way, I'm asking in a spirit of trying to understand this idea of Karma, not trying to be deliberately challenging or argumentative.

--Charles

[Charles]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

As Jundo said we can only concentrate on not doing harm at each moment, it's not something to worry about, and may be in affect irrelevant, but it is interesting to discuss as you can't seem to get away from questions about it and the big ''R' in Buddhism.

Kev,

On one level it's not something to worry about; but I also have sympathy with what Ken is saying, that our understanding does help determine who we are and what we do. My main worry here, I guess, is that if we have a view of karma that implies, 'If I do X and it brings suffering, I've done something wrong' even when our actions have been motivated by compassion in accord with the best information we have at the time we act, we may second-guess ourselves far too much. Thus I'm trying to figure out how a situation like that jives with the view of karma that Ken's describing.

--Charles

[Bansho]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Hi Charles,

Supposing a bad situation in which a person responds with compassion, in a way intended to make things better and reduce suffering for everyone involved; but through no fault of their own, due to imperfect knowledge of the situation, their actions cause suffering rather than relieve it. On the view of Karma you're talking about, how is this to be understood?

It depends on your perspective. Whatever person A thinks, says or does is and remains person A’s karma. If those actions were somehow directed (either intentionally or per chance) towards person B, that which was person A’s 'bad' karma may result in person B’s 'good' karma, or vice versa. That all depends upon person B’s tendencies towards greed, hate and delusion. Just as winning the lottery or losing your house due to fire may or may not result in good karma. They're just (karmically neutral) events. It all depends upon the recipient. Person X may respond positively to both, while person Y responds negatively to both. The way in which we experience the world, whatever may occur, and the actions we take (i.e. the karma we produce) as a response to those experiences are entirely up to us. A Buddhist practitioner who has insight into this should be less likely to create bad karma than someone who doesn’t – regardless of what he/she experiences.

Each individual has the freedom to choose their actions in a given situation, and therefore whether to create bad karma or not. If this wasn’t the case, there could be no liberation from karma, which, incidentally, corresponds to the (static) Brahmanistic view of it which was prevalent at the time Buddha lived. Of course, Buddha’s dynamic, volitional view of karma based on the freedom of choice was directly opposed to this, which is why he accepted anyone into his Sangha, regardless of their membership to a particular caste.

Gassho
Ken

[Charles]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Ken,

Thanks for the reply. That makes things much clearer for me.

Each individual has the freedom to choose their actions in a given situation, and therefore whether to create bad karma or not. If this wasn’t the case, there could be no liberation from karma, which, incidentally, corresponds to the (static) Brahmanistic view of it which was prevalent at the time Buddha lived. Of course, Buddha’s dynamic, volitional view of karma based on the freedom of choice was directly opposed to this, which is why he accepted anyone into his Sangha, regardless of their membership to a particular caste.

This, in particular, makes a lot of sense to me.

--Charles

[Bansho]

Re: What is the meaning of Karma in Zen perpective?

Hi Charles,

Great, glad I could help.

Gassho
Ken