Its Moving!!!

[themonk614]

Hi, Tony,

Just like to share this with you:

"I'm still learning." --Michelangelo, at age 87

Gassho,
Matt

SatToday


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[dharmasponge]

Don't like chocolate 😀😀😀

[Mp]

Don't like chocolate 😀😀😀

What? Oh my, we need to talk. LOL =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

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[Hoko]

Sekishi,
I knew you had excellent taste!

Gassho,
K2
#SatToday

[Jundo]

In the Buddha's Words ...

That abridged collection is a wonderful introduction to the old Suttas.

One small bit of advice: Read the Suttas themselves. Let them say what they say, usually very plain and clear. One can even find so much of the Zen Mahayana Tradition there if your heart is open. The "commentary" in the footnotes by Bikkhu Bodhi represents interpretations that, if you ask me, read a heck of a lot into the words, sometimes give rather extreme interpretations or add details not found at all in the plain words of the original but are in keeping with the interpretations that have come to be accepted in his particular Theravada tradition. This reflects the product of 2500 years of Buddhist thinkers and commentators interpreting and adding, like the Rabbis you added commentaries on commentaries on commentaries to enhance the original Torah. Just read what it says, and see if the message was perhaps simpler than all the added frosting would lead one to believe.

Notice the contradictions too, to be expected in writings that (like the Bible) developed over many many centuries, with varied philosophical perspectives at the hands of different authors (such as the Buddhas description of only Four Jhanas, which later was expanded to Eight or Nine) and some statements which would seem reasonable to a man of the iron age some 2500 years ago, but now seem quaint explanation of how the world works to modern folks (like the description of the cause of earthquakes). No problem, because the heart of the matter is worth the whole price of admission. The central message is still pretty consistent even if the details vary.

A wonderful book.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS -

A quick example. This from the Saleyyaka Sutta in the original is rendered as follows, with a message of realization in this life not unlike the message of Zen Buddhism, abiding the Precepts for household lay folks, and Practice-Enlightenment in this life. If one believes in rebirth ... there is rebirth. But it is possible to be delivered here and now, even as a householder.

43. “If, householders, one who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: ‘Oh, that by realising for myself with direct knowledge I might here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints!’ it is possible that, by realising for himself with direct knowledge, he will here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct.” 13

The footnote by Bhikku Bodhi, however, adds the following details based on centuries of philosophizing by Buddhist thinkers with great imaginations to fill in a lot that it just does not say there ...

13. It should be noted that while "conduct in accordance with the Dhamma " as described in the sutta is a necessary condition for rebirth in the higher heavenly worlds and for the destruction of the taints, it is by no means a sufficient condition. Rebirth into the realms beginning with the devas of Brahma's retinue requires the attainment of jhana, rebirth into the pure abodes (the five beginning with the aviha devas) requires the attainment of the stage of nonreturner. Rebirth into the formless planes requires the corresponding formless attainments, and the destruction of the taints requires the full practice of the Noble Eightfold Path up to the path of arahantship.

http://www.pacificbuddha.org/wp-cont...dhas-Words.pdf

I think the clarity of the original is lovely without all the tinsel. What the Buddha is quoted as saying in the Sutta itself seems a much clearer and straighter message to me anyway.

[JayPhi]

In the Buddha's Words ...

That abridged collection is a wonderful introduction to the old Suttas.

One small bit of advice: Read the Suttas themselves. Let them say what they say, usually very plain and clear. One can even find so much of the Zen Mahayana Tradition there if your heart is open. The "commentary" in the footnotes by Bikkhu Bodhi represents interpretations that, if you ask me, read a heck of a lot into the words, sometimes give rather extreme interpretations or add details not found at all in the plain words of the original but are in keeping with the interpretations that have come to be accepted in his particular Theravada tradition. This reflects the product of 2500 years of Buddhist thinkers and commentators interpreting and adding, like the Rabbis you added commentaries on commentaries on commentaries to enhance the original Torah. Just read what it says, and see if the message was perhaps simpler than all the added frosting would lead one to believe.

Notice the contradictions too, to be expected in writings that (like the Bible) developed over many many centuries, with varied philosophical perspectives at the hands of different authors (such as the Buddhas description of only Four Jhanas, which later was expanded to Eight or Nine) and some statements which would seem reasonable to a man of the iron age some 2500 years ago, but now seem quaint explanation of how the world works to modern folks (like the description of the cause of earthquakes). No problem, because the heart of the matter is worth the whole price of admission. The central message is still pretty consistent even if the details vary.

A wonderful book.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS -

A quick example. This from the Saleyyaka Sutta in the original is rendered as follows, with a message of realization in this life not unlike the message of Zen Buddhism, abiding the Precepts for household lay folks, and Practice-Enlightenment in this life. If one believes in rebirth ... there is rebirth. But it is possible to be delivered here and now, even as a householder.



The footnote by Bhikku Bodhi, however, adds the following details based on centuries of philosophizing by Buddhist thinkers with great imaginations to fill in a lot that it just does not say there ...



I think the clarity of the original is lovely without all the tinsel. What the Buddha is quoted as saying in the Sutta itself seems a much clearer and straighter message to me anyway.

Fascinating. I often wondered about the footnotes and comments. To me they always seemed be adding words, ideas, or concepts that just were not in the text. Just as you mention. I will indeed read with an open heart.

Gassho,
Jason

[dharmasponge]

Fascinating. I often wondered about the footnotes and comments. To me they always seemed be adding words, ideas, or concepts that just were not in the text. Just as you mention. I will indeed read with an open heart.

Gassho,
Jason

To be fair though there just as many commentaries on Dogen, some might suggest much more needed too! 😁

[JayPhi]

To be fair though there just as many commentaries on Dogen, some might suggest much more needed too! 😁

Can't say I disagreed. I think it is a fair comment. Pehaps we all take too much liberty in interpreting texts of any religion. But it may be a grasping and adversion thing. I could be wrong.

Gassho,
Jason

[Jundo]

To be fair though there just as many commentaries on Dogen, some might suggest much more needed too! ��

Endless comments on what Dogen meant. Sometimes, perhaps, maybe even Dogen did not always know what Dogen meant!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[themonk614]

Endless comments on what Dogen meant.

"...which is like putting one hat on top of another.” --The Gateless Gate

Gassho,
Matt

SatToday




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[RichardH]

A bit late to this discussion, and I'll just add that the first Buddhist practice I was taught, was from a Theravadin monk. He cautioned against grasping in meditation and taught "Choiceless awareness" as an antidote. It was not the Shikantaza that is taught by Jundo, but it was closer in spirit to this than what might be thought of as "Theravada meditation". I think this was a good example of a teacher meeting students where they are, and helping them from there. It put me on the path that brought me to this tradition.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

[Ongen]

Hi Tony!

Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony!

Gassho
Ongen

Sat today

Hey...

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