A question on Dogen Zenji

[Kenshou]

Hello;
My name is Paddy/Patrick.
I have been practicing Zazen on some level for about 10 years.
I do not live near a teacher or sangha and have done the best I can to find teaching.
I was involved with an online pureland sangha briefly.
Their teacher wrote a bit about Dogen Zenji.
One of the key points he wrote about was Dogen's teaching that enlightenment is simply seeing things as they truly are.
The writing went on to say that this was an impossibility because things are different depending on perspective; using as an example, that to view a mountain from different sides it would not look the same.
My understanding of what Dogen meant would be that seeing things as they truly are would be to recognize, no matter the angle from which you view the mountain, that it is the same mountain.
I was just looking for opinions. Is this the correct understanding of what Dogen meant? Or am I off track?

Gassho
Patrick

[Ongen]

A question on Dogen Zenji

Hi Patrick,

Your question reminds me of Herman Hesse's story Siddharta, where Siddharta lives with a ferryman for a while and learns wisdom by listening to the river that he sits next to.

If you look at the mountain like you would look at a river, constantly streaming, ever changing, is it different from different sides? Is it the same from one side always? Is it a mountain or a river?

Is there a difference between the mountain and the river?

What does the mountain see if it looks at you?

Are you different from different angles?

Gassho

Ongen

Sat today

[Kokuu]

Hi Patrick

I am no expert on Dogen but would suggest that the would say that the mountain is both a mountain and not a mountain.

Seeing things as they really are might well mean to see that a mountain is really made up of elements that are not a mountain on their own - rocks, plants, soil, air. It is also changing from moment to moment and the mountain you see one second is not exactly the same mountain as it is the next moment (as Dogen says "green mountains are always walking").

However, it is also true that we can see a mountain in front of us, we can walk up it, take pictures of it and give it a name that everyone knows applies to that piece of the landscape. Each of us will have a slightly different take on the mountain, though, based on our angle of view and personal experience of that mountain and others. Consider how differently an artist, a geologist and a climber might see it. Their mental image (which is all we have in the end) will be unique to them.

I hope this is helpful but am still very much learning Dogenese myself.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Mp]

Hello Patrick,

Some good responses thus far ... my take on it is, to see things "just as they are" refers to cutting away mental conditions such as good or bad, big or small, moutain or river, etc. If we truly see the mountain just as the mountain, then regardless of the side you are on, the mountain is still just the mountain. Left side, right side, top, bottom, big, or small are conditions we put onto the mountain, the mountain is just the mountain, regardless of who is seeing it or how it is being seen. =)

I do love this poem from Master Tozan ...

The blue mountain is the father of the white cloud. The white cloud is the son of the blue mountain. All day long they depend on each other, without becoming dependent on each other. The white cloud is always the white cloud. The blue mountain is always the blue mountain.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Kenshou]

Thank you everyone for your very thought provoking responses.
You have all been a great help and given me a lot to consider.
I will do exactly that, which I am sure will lead to more questions. :-)

Gassho
Patrick

[Risho]

oh man - I feel like this is something you need to figure out for yourself. I know that sounds shitty, but all I can suggest is to look into some posts and talks that Jundo has made about Dogen. I'm sure none of it will make sense at first, and that's ok because Dogen is nuts (whoops I mean he is akin to a creative jazz musician to steal Jundo's metaphor haha).

Seriously, he takes you down one path, but to make sure you don't stick to a viewpoint, he argues against it and then talks from a different perspective. These zen types talk out both sides of their mouths. I mean how do you save all sentient beings? There are no beings. There is no self, but I'm right here. Everything is one, but it's also not one, not two. Why in the hell did the red-bearded barbarian come from the west? You want to know what this mean? Have you eaten? Then clean your damned bowl. Are you dirty? take a shower .lol

ok sorry, just don't give up. Keep reading and keep sitting - that's really all I can say. Some things about Dogen that didn't make sense, and to echo Kokuu, holy crap I still don't get it all, but some things I didn't get at first make sense now because I read Dogen, studied different teachers views on Dogen (e.g. Jundo) and sat. Some of it just clicks.

A lot of what Dogen is talking about is the experience of zazen. I mean that is one thing; so dropping off body and mind or seeing things as they are. It's like when you sit zazen, thoughts come and float on by. Instead of attaching and giving energy, you just observe them. That may be one way of truly seeing things. How does that reduce suffering? How does that save the sentient beings? How does that enable compassionate action? Dogen is repeatedly pointing us back to practice and not just on the cushion, but in our daily lives. So when I try to think about Dogen out of the context of practice, and just isolate it to intellectual understanding, it is nonsense. But if you can see Dogen from a perspective of practice, then it starts to make sense, although it is still as confusing as hell Which at first is frustrating, but it becomes kind of fun later on.

I really like the zen teachers who give you questions and not answers. Anyway, sorry for the babbling.

So, seeing things as they truly are is very specious from one perspective, but I agree with Shingen, I think it means to drop our preconceived notions and internal chatter and attachments and see them. Now, again, we can only see things from our perspective, so can we truly see things as they are? How do you truly see things as they are?

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Kyonin]

Hi Patrick,

My guess is that yes, we can only perceive reality but that perception will always depend on our background, culture and opinions.

By practicing zazen we can drop it all and see a mountain for what it is: without labels, our human language, judgments and as a whole with the universe.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Kyosei]

Hello;
Their teacher wrote a bit about Dogen Zenji.
One of the key points he wrote about was Dogen's teaching that enlightenment is simply seeing things as they truly are.
The writing went on to say that this was an impossibility because things are different depending on perspective; using as an example, that to view a mountain from different sides it would not look the same.
My understanding of what Dogen meant would be that seeing things as they truly are would be to recognize, no matter the angle from which you view the mountain, that it is the same mountain.

Hi Patrick, my friend. I don't have 10 years practicing Zazen, neither I have a deep knowledge of Master Dogen's works,

I am a beginner...

As a beginner, I don't care much for perspectives, but to see as-it-isness for myself and (take my own conclusions?) - but when I see the mountain for the first time I see the mountain, just this. And when I see the mountain, it is part of my field of vision, so where is that I call the mountain? Here in me, or there where I can see?

I see the mountain far away, and as I approach the mountain all I can see now is a huge amount of earth, rocks, trees maybe, maybe snow, some vegetation here and there, after a while I decide to climb the mountain and while climbing my hand grabs it I feel earth falling down through my fingers...

That same moment, someone looks at the Mountain from a distance and even he's looking the Mountain's image I saw at first, he's not seeing the same Mountain at all.

For him, at a distance, even I became merged with it, indistinguishable from the mountain's image. So for him I am the mountain too...

Everything changes each instant, so where's the core of what I or you or he or she call a mountain? what defines a mountain? If there's plenty of points-of-view, then none are correct. Points-of-view are people expressing accumulated-through-life ideas they mixed with their (brief and always partial) perceptions of Reality.

For me, to see things as impermanent, ever changing, without a core, movement, flux, is to see them as they trully are. Thus for me, to be aware of this impermanence is the core of Reality.

Though I don't know what Dogen Sama Zenji said, I think you're always on track, there's no other track for us to be. Only this one in which we already are.

Funny, when I read your post I remembered a "The Matrix" scene, where a "buddhist" boy tells Neo that is not "the spoon that moves, it is your mind that moves".

No mountains.

Welcome, my friend, and I beg you sorry for my silly words. I only wish I could contribute with my 2 cents.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Jakuden]

oh man - I feel like this is something you need to figure out for yourself. I know that sounds shitty, but all I can suggest is to look into some posts and talks that Jundo has made about Dogen. I'm sure none of it will make sense at first, and that's ok because Dogen is nuts (whoops I mean he is akin to a creative jazz musician to steal Jundo's metaphor haha).

Seriously, he takes you down one path, but to make sure you don't stick to a viewpoint, he argues against it and then talks from a different perspective. These zen types talk out both sides of their mouths. I mean how do you save all sentient beings? There are no beings. There is no self, but I'm right here. Everything is one, but it's also not one, not two. Why in the hell did the red-bearded barbarian come from the west? You want to know what this mean? Have you eaten? Then clean your damned bowl. Are you dirty? take a shower .lol

Lol!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Jundo]

One of the key points he wrote about was Dogen's teaching that enlightenment is simply seeing things as they truly are.
The writing went on to say that this was an impossibility because things are different depending on perspective; using as an example, that to view a mountain from different sides it would not look the same.
My understanding of what Dogen meant would be that seeing things as they truly are would be to recognize, no matter the angle from which you view the mountain, that it is the same mountain.
I was just looking for opinions. Is this the correct understanding of what Dogen meant? Or am I off track?

Hello Paddy,

This is not so complicated.

When seeing a mountain on a rainy day, such is the truth of seeing the mountain on a rainy day.

When seeing the mountain on a sunny day, such is thoroughly the truth of seeing the mountain on a sunny day.

When knowing the mountain from the summit, that is the truth of the mountain known from the summit.

When knowing the mountain from the base or halfway up, that is the truth of base and the truth of halfway up ... as well as the truth of base and halfway up.

When experiencing the mountain free of all mental divising and dividing such as "summit" or "bottom" or "midway", such is the truth of the mountain without top bottom or middle.

When seeing the mountain while dropping away (as one does in Zazen) all judgments and appraisals and relative measures such as good and bad or tall vs. short, such is just the truth of the mountin beyond all judgments and appraisals of good or bad, a truth neither measured as tall or short.

When dropping away all names and categories such as "mountains" or "me", such is simply the truth free of names and categories, itness and me.

When experiencing that as the mountain rises up from the world, so the whole world flows from the mountain, this is just the truth of the mountain rising up and the whole world flowing.

When knowing that the whole universe and all moments of time are embodied in each grain of sand of the mountain, all is nothing but the truth of all space and time in each mountainy grain.

When we know that the mountain future is just the mountain present becoming the mountain past, this is the moment of truth of the future being present becoming the past.

When experiencing the truth that, as the hiker walks the mountain, thus does the mountain walks the hiker, and all is mountain mountaining mountain and nothing else, this is just the truth of walking and mountaining and nothing else.

When the mountain vanishes, such is the truth of mountain vanishes.

The list can go on ...

Each perspective is simultaneously all the other perspectives, yet each perspective is simply its own perspective, while each perspective is nothing but the one and only perspective and there is no other ... and, anyway, what perspective when no seer and no seen? What perspective could even be possible when all is only seer seering seer, which is just seen seening seen?

In sitting Shikantaza Zazen, as we free the mind from limited human judgments, perceived oppositions, categories and divisions, all such truths can be experienced. Better than to philosophize about such truth(s) however, is to experience such truth for oneself in sitting. It is truly simple.

Gassho, J

JustSatToday as Total Truth of Justsitting

[Kenshou]

Thank you all so much.
The response has been incredible and I do want to reply to all of them today.
Just after re-reading my post I just wanted to clarify; I only ever mention how long I have been practicing Zazen to emphasize how happy I am to have found Treeleaf after all this time of no teacher; or in the case of my early 20s; a very misleading one.
I truly am so grateful to have found this marvelous community with such amazing teachers.
Gassho
Patrick
Sat today

[Kenshou]

Thank you so much Jundo,
Your reply was extremely helpful, and clarifying.
While I appreciate all of the responses I have received on this question; your reply along with Shingen's spoke to me in a different way, that I am unsure I can adequately explain.
Re-reading your response this evening along with Shingen's helped me make the decision to sit through a very difficult situation that unfolded very suddenly and quickly. They assisted in my realizing that no matter how angry I got with anyone, nor how upset, nothing would affect the outcome of the night. What had happened had happened; there was no turning back time, nothing I could do to help or fix anything; there was just to sit, to be right there amidst the rising and falling fear, anxiety, desperation, melancholy nostalgia and hope, and love, to allow events to unfold as they may. There truly was nothing else to do but sit and to accept the situation at hand, and anything else would exasperate the situation in my mind.
Thankfully everything was fine, but my 10 month old son was taken by ambulance to hospital 100km away, and only his mother was able to go with him.
Tonight this was my mountain and I experienced every sharp rock and jagged tree branch; as well as every beautiful flower, refreshing drop of rain falling through the leaves, soft blade of grass. I saw the view of the imposing, seemingly impossible peak from the very base and I saw the world and I felt the relief and the joy from the very top.

Thank you again everyone for the time you have taken to respond to this question. All have been helpful in their own way.

Gassho
Patrick

[Jundo]

Sitting for your son and all who have sick loved ones tonight.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Patrick, I am happy to know my words have helped bring stillness... You and your son are in my thoughts, sending much metta to you both!

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

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[Joyo]

Thank you, Jundo, Shingen and all.

I have found, in the time that I have been practicing, seeing the mountain just as it is has been a real struggle at times. It's nice to have the help and support from this sangha to keep walking side by side on this path together.

Paddy, as a parent myself I can understand some of the fear you must be going through. Sending you, your son, and your family warm thoughts and much metta.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today