Scratching an itch

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi,

Doesn't the term 'Zazen' mean 'sitting meditation'? Likewise 'shikantaza' translates as 'just sitting', 'thoroughly sitting', so the 'sitting' is obviously an element. Does this mean just sitting on a bar stool eating nuts somewhere? No, it means sitting in the transmitted posture of body/mind.

I don't doubt we can perform 'scratching meditation', 'itching meditation', 'paint-your-ass-green-and-stand-on-your-tippytoes meditation'..., but that's not Zazen or shikantaza.

The posture of Zazen/shikantaza is a very specific pose, with specific effects, which came from pre-Buddhist yogic practice. Its a posture of body/mind, not just one or the other. Its not just any old thing; although I do certainly think the effects of Zazen can pervade other actions.

Regards,

Harry.

Harry, you know enough about Dogen to realize that "sitting" means the entire universe, standing, reclining, walking or flying through the air.

The true meaning of "Full Lotus" is all being-space-time, my friend.

I am not a fetishist for the posture itself, and I believe that some Soto Practitioners lose Dogen's real point on that issue. They cannot see the forest for the trees, or "all of reality" for the posture.

"just sit to sit, without thought of this and that and the other thing, seeing through self/other, now/then, dropping likes and dislikes, without goal or thoughts of achievement, without profit from the sitting, not thinking that one should better be doing something else ... sitting as the one perfectly-what-it-is act at that one moment, the only moment in the whole universe and the whole universe sitting in this one moment etc. etc. etc. ... if you bounce a ball or change a tire with this perspective, it is "Zazen". But if you cross the legs and straigten the back in the Lotus Position, yet lack such perspective, you have merely tangled legs and a tangled mind.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Forgive me - I am a little confused. The Britannica Concise Encyclopedia defines zazen as:

Sitting meditation as practiced in Zen Buddhism. The disciple sits in a quiet room, breathing rhythmically and easily, with legs fully or half crossed, spine and head erect, hands folded one palm above the other, and eyes open. Logical, analytic thinking is suspended, as are all desires, attachments, and judgments, leaving the mind in a state of relaxed attention. The practice was brought to prominence by Dogen, who considered it not only to be a method of moving toward enlightenment but also, if properly experienced, to constitute enlightenment itself.

I understand (I think ), that moments of the feelings/state of zazen can follow me into the day, but I didn't think these were zazen perse, just echos.

Happy to be corrected

Kind regards

Jools

[Fuken]

Re: Scratching an itch

Sometimes I like the word “Dwell” or even “Abide.”

Gassho,
Jordan

[Fuken]

Re: Scratching an itch

No Koans! :evil:

Sorry, Harry, I am a little bussy to get down in the weeds. Besides, if you start analyzing it, or talking about it, it will become ever more finely divided, and there will be no end.

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 in. Man the greenback isin't worth much today.

Gassho,
Jordan

[Fuken]

Re: Scratching an itch

:wink:

[will]

Re: Scratching an itch

H

Glum "Zen" silence

So which glum silence do you prefer? :|

G,W

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Jundo,

Yes, of course. But 'the big view' should not make the very real practicalities of the practice all mushy, in my opinion. I think the practice comes to us in this form for very good, practical reasons.

There's a middle way between the 'posture fetishists' and the obvious benifits of good posture in practice... for one, sitting for an extended period with a bad posture, or with a 'perfect' posture which does not suit your body, will likely injure you. 'Good posture' is relative to our conditions (as is 'bad').

I don't believe its appropriate to consider Zazen as 'Zazen' while we actually do it in the same way that if we really want to bounce a ball or change a tyre we should just bounce the ball or change the tyre. We can consider them 'Zazen' if we wish, but... why?

Regards,

Harry.

Hi Harry,

I agree. Posture is vital. But I think we have to keep a couple of things in mind about the history of the Lotus Position itself, its real benefits and purposes, monastery life, the Japanese tendency to fetishize the "correct" way (yarikata) to do things, and the Buddha's and Dogen's central philosophical perspectives on Practice.

Yes, the Lotus Position has been the traditional yogic position for meditation for thousands of years, even before the time of the Buddha. And certainly the Buddha sat that way (as every statue of a sitting Buddha demonstrates). And certainly there are tremendous benefits to the posture in providing balance and stability conducive to 'dropping body and mind' and engaging in balanced, stable Zazen. In that posture, we literally can give no thought to the body. The comfort and balance of the body is directly connected, and conducive to, comfort and balance of mind.

But I would hesitate to go much further in attributing any special power or physical effect to the position itself.

First off, I believe the Buddha himself sat that way because, well, he needed to sit some way for hours on end -- and the "lotus position" was then the custom in India for how people sat on the ground and very good for marathon sitting. It is a good way to sit on a rock or under a tree, which is what folks did back then (in fact, he may have sat with his posterior flat on the ground, by the way, without a cushion or 'Zafu' ... which is very different from how we sit). As I said, it is very balanced and stable. But there is no evidence in the early Sutras and Shastras that he himself ever focused on the position itself as having some special power, always emphasizing the philosophical and psychological aspects of Buddhist philosophy far over the purely physical. Certainly, he did not encourage engaging in any other yoga positions as were common in India at the time (e.g., we do not stand on our heads as a normal part of practice), so I do not think he was a great proponent of the positional type of yoga itself.

When Buddhism spread to China, Japan and other countries, I believe that people continued to follow the custom. However, even then there has been a tremendous degree of small variations in the details of the Lotus Posture, e.g., hand position, back angle and such.

Now, when Zazen came to Dogen, well, it came to a fellow who also left us with detailed instructions about how to carry our towels in the washroom, clean our nose, bow, place incense, use a pillow while sleeping and wipe ourselves in the toilet. Dogen, like many Japanese of ancient and modern times, was something of a control freak who emphasized that there is "one right way" to do things (the aforementioned (yarikata). I have seen Japanese get the same way about the proper way to wear socks and enter an elevator. Here is that wonderful short film that makes fun of it (I know that you have seen it 100 times):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... i5CQ&hl=en

and here is another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjuD52s0GBs&feature=related[/video]]

... re=related

Now, that is not a bad thing, mind you, for Zen Practice. Don't get me wrong. It is the same mentality exactly as in "Oryoki" meal taking in a Zen monastery by which the simple act of eating requires dozens and dozens of set gestures that must be mastered in the body memory. It is conducive to many aspects of Practice, including focused mindfulness. Sitting in a set way such as the Lotus Posture has the same benefits of allowing the action itself to be forgotten as it is mastered by the body memory.

Also, of course, in a monastery ... like in army boot camp ... you don't want folks just running around and flopping down any which way they feel, eating and sleeping whenever they wish. Quite the contrary. Discipline is required, so naturally, is the demand that everyone march around the monastery and sit in exactly the same way.

If you look at Shobogenzo and other writings by Dogen, he actually spends very little time explaining the details of how to sit. In Fukanzazengi, for example, he explains the barebones act of sitting on a pillow, crossing the legs and such ... but for sentence after sentence after sentence he is focused on the "cosmic significance" of Zazen and the mental game. It is much the same when he describes how to carry a towel in the bath, wear our robes, bow or go to the toilet. He describes the procedure, but then is much more focused on the philosophical view of the act.

Bouncing a ball or changing a tire --is-- Zazen itself. Dogen was clear on that. Of course, you do not have monks changing tires or bouncing balls too much in daily monastery life, so Dogen did not talk about those. But he did talk about the equivalent for monastery life, namely, cooking food as the Tenzo, washing the floors, etc. Dogen was crystal clear that the Lotus Position is the whole universe, the whole universe and all the Buddhas and Ancestors are sitting in the Lotus Position when you and I so sit ... but he was also clear that EVERYTHING is the Lotus Position. It is clear that Dogen, too, loved the perfection of the Lotus Posture ... but there is very little talk, if any, in his writing about the power of the position itself (do not confuse statements about the philosophical power of the position with his asserting that some energy or effect arises from the position itself ... you will not find much of that).

In my view, Dogen's real message ... and the real message of Zen practice ... is not that there is only "one way" to do something in this vast universe. It is that "one thing" should be done with our whole heart-mind as the "one and only act in that one moment" in this vast universe. That is what Dogen was saying.

My teacher, Nishijima, considers the Lotus Position a pure action, one pure thing. He recommends everyone to sit in the Lotus Position if at all possible. I do too (too many westerners get lazy or scared and don't really try, or give it sufficient time). But these days, in Zazen, Westerners have begun sitting other ways such as in seiza or on chairs (I only recommend this if there is a physical limitation whereby one cannot sit in the Lotus Posture). I believe that body-mind can be dropped away in those positions too if done with balance and stability.

An overly fetishized focus on the miracles of the Lotus Position itself is misplaced and misunderstands Dogen's intent.

Anyway, that is my position (pun intended). I won't budge.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

I understand (I think ), that moments of the feelings/state of zazen can follow me into the day, but I didn't think these were zazen perse, just echos.

Happy to be corrected

Kind regards

Jools

If you write your book report from the Encyclopedia, the teacher will flunk you! :wink:

No, everything and all times are Zazen. That does not me we do not have to cross the legs and face the wall. Kind of a Koan.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Thank you Jundo for your comprehensive response to Harry & I am duly admonished for looking up the dictionary definition of zazen. :?

Regards

Jools

[will]

Re: Scratching an itch

Bendowa
Dogen Sangha Modern interpretations


When the buddhas – those who live fully in the present – each of
whom has learned the Buddha’s truth from a real person, realise what
the truth is, they achieve it by the best method there is. This method,
in which there is no intention of reaching an aim, is subtle, and is only
taught by one buddha to another buddha. It never deviates from this.
It is a practice that balances the active and the passive, and it sets the
body-and-mind right. The authentic form of this practice, which is
known as Zazen, is sitting in an upright posture.

Jundo

My teacher, Nishijima, considers the Lotus Position a pure action, one pure thing. He recommends everyone to sit in the Lotus Position if at all possible. I do too (too many westerners get lazy or scared and don't really try, or give it sufficient time). But these days, in Zazen, Westerners have begun sitting other ways such as in seiza or on chairs (I only recommend this if there is a physical limitation whereby one cannot sit in the Lotus Posture). I believe that body-mind can be dropped away in those positions too if done with balance and stability.

Another good point which I heard someone once say about the benefit of not using a bench and such, is that we should be able to sit anywhere.

"Oh no. I don't have my bench. Sh*t." :shock:

This Zazen stuff, doesn't get glued to the cushion though. What would be the point of sitting if we couldn't take it into every moment of our existence?

Anyway, it's funny how when we think about itch, we itch. My sister used to go crazy when the word flea was mentioned (our house had fleas a couple of times when I was a kid). Also when we itch one place and we scratch it, another itch starts. It's mostly reaction and focusing on the itch.

Sit with it? Not sit with it? Well, that's really up to you. Just don't spend 30 minutes scratching.

G,W

[Shui_Di]

Re: Scratching an itch

Zen isn't related to standing and sitting, while standing and sitting is Zen.
Saying that sitting in full lotus is "very special posture", well, it's help for the beginner, just to make a "trust".

But, more further, if we become clinging to the posture, is just like you're clinging to the finger which is pointing the moon, then you won't see the moon clearly.

Remember... to study the self is to forget the self....
if the self is forgotten, .... who will cling to such a posture....?

The posture is like a good tool. Just a tool...

Gassho, Shui Di

[will]

Re: Scratching an itch

The posture is like a good tool. Just a tool...

Spoken like a true Zen ma ma ma masterrrr. 8)


G,W

[Shui_Di]

Re: Scratching an itch

I'm not the Zen master.... just like the others, I'm just a beginner...

Gassho, Shui Di.

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Thanks for this Will.

With all due respect to the free and beautiful expression of my Dharma Brother, Michael Leutchford, his "Modern Interpretation" of Bendowa differs in important ways from most standard translations, for example ...

Bendowa
Dogen Sangha Modern interpretations


When the buddhas – those who live fully in the present – each of
whom has learned the Buddha’s truth from a real person, realise what
the truth is, they achieve it by the best method there is. This method,
in which there is no intention of reaching an aim, is subtle, and is only
taught by one buddha to another buddha. It never deviates from this.
It is a practice that balances the active and the passive, and it sets the
body-and-mind right. The authentic form of this practice, which is
known as Zazen, is sitting in an upright posture.

... versus this respected version by Aitken Roshi and Kaz Tanahashi ...

The various Buddhas and Tathagatas have a most enlightened way of realizing superior wisdom and transmitting the supreme law. When transmitted from Buddha to Buddha, its mark is self-joyous meditation. To enter this meditation naturally, right sitting is the true gate. Though each man has Buddha-nature in abundance, he cannot make it appear without practice or live it without enlightenment. If you let it go, it fills your hand; it transcends the one and many. If you talk about it, it fills your mouth; it is beyond measurement by height and width. All Buddhas eternally have their abode here without becoming attached to one-sided recognition. All beings are working here without attachment to sides in each recognition. The devices and training that I teach now manifest all things in original enlightenment and express unity in action. And when you thoroughly understand, why cling to such trifles as these?

It is interesting to compare the two. As you can see, there is no mention here particularly of "upright posture", and instead there is something much more encompassing and subtle. I think.

Here is the recent, and rather less pithy, Shasta Abbey version ...

All Buddhas, without exception, confirm Their having realized the state of
enlightenment by demonstrating Their ability to directly Transmit the wondrous
Dharma. As embodiments of the Truth, They have employed an unsurpassed,
inconceivably marvelous method which functions effortlessly. It is simply this
method that Buddhas impart to Buddhas, without deviation or distortion, and Their
meditative state of delight in the Truth is its standard and measure. As They take
pleasure wherever They go to spiritually aid others while in such a state, They treat
this method of Theirs—namely, the practice of seated meditation—as the proper
and most straightforward Gate for entering the Way.
People are already abundantly endowed with the Dharma in every part of
their being, but until they do the training, It will not emerge. And unless they
personally confirm It for themselves, there is no way for them to realize what It is.
But when they give It out to others, It keeps filling their hands to overflowing for,
indeed, It makes no distinction between ‘for the one’ and ‘for the many’. When
they give voice to It, It flows forth from their mouths like a tide, limitless in Its
breadth and depth. All Buddhas continually dwell within this state, with None
holding onto any of Their thoughts or perceptions, regardless of whatever may
arise, whereas the great mass of sentient beings perpetually make use of what is
within this state, but without their being fully awake to any situation.

[/quote]

Gassho, Jundo

[Bansho]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi guys,

Thanks for this discussion. It seems to me that questions like 'Is scratching Zazen or not?' is something that everyone must answer for themselves. We must pose the question over and over, and answer the question over and over. Each time we think differently about the question, and each time the answer may be different. No lasting right or wrong for a particular individual, and certainly what is 'right' in the eyes of one individual must not necessarily be 'right' in the eyes of another. In this moment, scratching may be perfectly Zazen, no Zazen apart from scratching, and no scratching which is not Zazen. In the next moment, it may be just mundane scratching.

This discussion reminded me of something Thomas Wright wrote in his introduction to 'How to Cook Your Life' by Uchiyama Roshi. I certainly don't necessarily agree with everything said in the following quote, but I think it's worth citing here:

It goes without saying that the central practice of a person practicing Buddhism is zazen. However, the reader should not get the idea that here I am comparing zazen with the rest of our day-to-day activities. To do so would be to fall into the trap that many practitioners fall into of clinging to the idea that practicing zazen is most important; therefore, one should practice it twenty-four hours a day. The error here is in taking literally the idea of zazen being the most important activity in our life as opposed to all our other activities.

On the other hand, there is another trap that people can and often do fall into, and that is the one of thinking that we must practice zazen in all of our day-to-day activities. The obvious next step in this way of thinking is to equate all of one's activities with zazen. That is, everything one does is zazen - eating, sleeping, drinking, being. The practical problem in this way of thinking is that all too often people simply wind up doing less and less zazen, deluding themselves into believing that since all their activities are zazen there is no need to sit and face the wall and do zazen.

To restate the problem, taking the idea of zazen as the central practice in a relative or comparative sense leads to an egoistical extreme eventually inviting suicide. On the other hand, taking the idea of zazen in a 'broader' context leads to a kind of simplistic eclecticism having nothing to do with zazen. In other words, to state that zazen has a definite and particular form, and to cling to that position leads to one kind of trouble, while stating that zazen has no particular form sends one off in another confused direction. There is no logical resolution to this problem. And it is this illogical paradox with which a true practitioner of Zen must 'sit', both literally and spiritually.

The bold emphasis in the last paragraph is mine. I think he sums things up very nicely there.

Gassho
Ken