Scratching an itch

[Ryumon]

So I was sitting this evening, and I got an itch in the corner of my eye. This happens sometimes. I remembered reading, in a book on vipassana, how the teacher had a fly on his nose and did everything to label the feeling and sit with it, making a big deal about how important it was to not brush the fly away, but rather to be one with the tickling on his nose.

I just scratched my itch, thinking that if I knew I was scratching it, then it was ok. Jundo, any thoughts on this? Is it ok to scratch an itch?

Kirk

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi Kirk

I would be interested to hear Jundo's advice on this as well. Its a quite mundane, but common occurence for me & like you describe I have spent many a happy session focused on that itch :evil: .

These days I scratch & forget it - but I am happy t be guided otherwise

Kind regards

Jools

ps - if it is not the itch, then its my leg going to sleep

[ChaosWithin]

Re: Scratching an itch

AAHHH!!! SPIDER!!!
*smacks wildly about himself*
Yah, I'm a spider phobe. It's true... :roll:

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi Guys,

Here is my perspective on sitting with itchy noses, aching legs and backs, crawly spiders and such ...

Let me mention first that one day I was sitting at Sojiji (head temple of Soto Zen in Japan) in a 150 year old wooden building, with rafters nibbled by termites and with an overly heavy roof, when a big earthquake hit ... the roof is swaying. Everyone but me was Japanese. I looked around to see if folks would run for the door ... nobody moved from Zazen or even looked around but me! There is a great cultural tendency in Japanese culture to just "bear up" with pain and disturbances, and I have rarely if ever seen an experienced Japanese sitter move, shift legs or scratch during Zazen. In fact, my Japanese dentist tells me that there are two main difference between his Western patients and Japanese patients: (1) Westerners ask a lot more questions about the dental procedure and everything else; (2) Westerners moan and scream much more easily. :shock:

So, I have to balance my recommendations by taking into consideration what is just "Japanese culture", what is "Zen teachings", and what may be "BOTH"!

Generally, our Way of Shikantaza Zazen is about "just sitting" with whatever is, just how it is. As in life-in-general, not every moment is peaches and cream, fun and games. So, it is wonderful Practice for us to sit with discomforts, pain, annoyances. We drop all thought of the words "discomfort", "pain", "annoyance", "like" "dislike" "good" "bad" ... and just sit with what is.

On the other hand, the Buddha's way was never one of masochism or asceticism, complete denial of the body. In fact, ours is the Middle Way, the path of moderation in all things. Furthermore, we do not harm the body.

Thus, my advice is to just "sit with" the itches, discomforts and spiders (unless a highly poisonous spider!) . Note it, then move back to open, spacious sitting. In fact, you will find that the more your mind fixates on it, and thinks about it, the more of a problem it becomes. By not thinking about it, the so-called "problem" may even fade away on its own, or not be experienced as a problem.

But if you reach the point that there is truly the risk of harm to the body, then please give a small "Gassho" and discreetly and quietly change position (even do your Zazen standing or do Kinhin walking), or move the giant killer spider away.

Furthermore, our Way is not about ALWAYS having discomfort, so if your legs or back hurt all the time, you may have to change your sitting position or wait for your legs and back to adjust. We do not sit with leg pain every day or most days.

But, on the other-other hand, if you have a physical condition that means you ALWAYS have pain and there is absolutely no way to avoid that (for example, if you have arthritis that is always there), you just sit with that. You allow it, not thinking "good" or "bad".

If there is a true health risk ... STOP Zazen immediately. Come back to it when you can.

You have to decide for yourself when is the time to sit with the ache or spider, when is the time not to.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- Wonderful story about the Dali Lama and a mosquito, not apocryphal ...

During a 1990 interview with the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, Bill Moyers once asked if it was acceptable to kill a mosquito. The Dalai Lama thought for a moment and said something like this while miming the hand gestures:

“Well, if it bothers me, I wave it away. And if it comes back, I wave it away again. But if it comes back again . . . [sound of the Dalai Lama hitting his face].” Then he smiled. Mindful. Practical.

[Shui_Di]

Re: Scratching an itch

Thanks Jundo...

But for the Dalai Lama Quote...
If I were him, I think I won't kill the mosquito, as far as the mosquito don't kill me... :P
And I think to be bitten by general mosquito will not kill us (I mean, not for the dangerous type of mosquito :shock: ).
If it won't kill us, so why we have to kill it...
In my experience, if there is some mosquito bit me...(There are a lot of mosquitoes in Indonesia) ....
I just let it bit me, may be because it hungry, and it needs to eat also (I mean drinks a blood).
And after the mosquito isn't hungry again, it will leave us. Very easy, isn't it?

Gassho, Shui Di

[Ryumon]

Re: Scratching an itch

Regarding mosquitoes (this might be straying a bit), Douglas Hofstadter, in his recent book on consciousness I Am a Strange Loop, explains why - even though he is a vegetarian because he doesn't want to take life - he doesn't hesitate to swat mosquitoes. He claims they are not conscious, hence not sentient beings. He also points out that they can transmit disease, but that's another story...

For those interested in consciousness, this book is a must read. (Yea, I know, I read too much...)

Kirk

[Louise]

Re: Scratching an itch

This itching thing makes me laugh. :lol: I've noticed a pattern to my 'itching' as I have continued to practice.

It starts sometime before the end of the session, just as I am starting to get a bit bored and uncomfortable. I think it may be a form of self-stimulation as the monkey mind tries to occupy itself. I have noticed that it's starting later though and I'm gradually trying to deal with it by selective ignoring. If you ignore it for long enough it generally goes away as the mind gets bored with it and moves on to something else. I've also developed a categorisation method whereby I only scratch those itches that make me wince and ignore the rest. Once the milder ones are successfully ignored, I then feel able to start ignoring the really, really annoying ones

Gassho Louise

[Longdog]

Re: Scratching an itch

A much more experienced meditator who leads our local group recommends just having that scratch and then getting back to sitting. The thought being that you're not doing zazen if you're thinking about the itch anyway? Any thoughts on that?

For my self I do just ignore it and it goes somewhere esle, then some where esle, then some where else, and then eventually it goes away.

I find the same with any neck/upper back ache that creeps in towards the end of a sit. If I just sit with it it's not big problem and drops away, but if I move/stretch it it just begins along chain of other things that want my attention.

In gassho, Kev

[Ryumon]

Re: Scratching an itch

Kev,

Its up to us, but we're certainly not doing Zazen when we scratch; we're doing scratching and we're being something, we're being a scratch *trying* not to be an itch.

I beg to differ. You can be doing zazen when you are doing anything, if you do it mindfully. In my case, when I scratched the itch, I knew I was scratching it, I was not just instinctively scratching. It's the same as when you breathe you know that you are breathing, etc.

Part of the goal is to be doing zazen when not sitting, isn't it?

Kirk

[Longdog]

Re: Scratching an itch

Good point Kirk :wink:

But we could use that as a reason to do anything really, couldn't we? May be there is a fine line between mindfully scratching an itch, shooing a fly or what ever and the mind making us fidget?

In gassho, Kev

[Ryumon]

Re: Scratching an itch

As far as I understand, we _can_ do anything, just the goal is to do it mindfully...

Kirk

[Jundo]

Re: Scratching an itch

When you scratch, just scratch. When you itch, just itch.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Re: Scratching an itch

I don't itch much when sitting.

G,W

[Ryumon]

Re: Scratching an itch

Thanks for addressing my question in today's talk.

FWIW, we have those big-ass mosquitoes here in the Alps, and I understand that they don't bite. It's the little ones that bite. (Apparently, only female mosquitoes bite.)

Kirk

[Shindo]

Re: Scratching an itch

Hi Harry

although I do certainly think the effects of Zazen can pervade other actions.

absolutely, I agree with that & have experienced it - on a good day

Cheers

Jools