multicultural Zen

[Kaishin]

Treeleaf will (hopefully!) continue long after Jundo is gone (sorry that's morbid ). It will be interesting to see how and where our (hopefully many!) novices lead us. Perhaps some will go even more traditional, while others will go the very stripped-down route of Joko Beck.

Let's watch and see...

-satToday

[Sozan]

BTW - The Catholic church has not entirely mothballed the Latin liturgy. Masses are still being sung or read in Latin. It happens to be the language great music was composed to, and I was lucky enough to regularly sing Latin choir masses for a few years in a major European cathedral

Hi Nindo,

The old Latin hymns are beautiful. My Dad sang in choir for years when I was a kid. They used Gregorian Chant for mass. Even as a kid it took me to a sacred place, still does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ElL8hdQD_4

Happy memories.
Gassho,
Sozan

s@2day

[Byrne]

Gregorian chant. The basis for all western harmony. The fundamental melodies, stacked atop each other to form chords. My mom used to play that stuff around the house at Christmas. It depresses the hell out of me.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

The Zen tradition comes from China, Korea and Japan. Now it's becoming World Zen. Or maybe Earth Zen. I think unless you strip it down to the basics, it won't take off. For me the basics are sitting, bowing and chanting. The basic liturgy would be the heart and diamond sutras.

SAT today

I agree! That's about all that is needed, and all that holds the whole world.

And yet ... Oryoki is a powerful practice, the bells keep time, the incense transports us, honoring our Asian "roots" and remembering our long dead ancestors keeps us connected to the family, those weird Koan stories about dead Chinese guys have a point, the Kesa is a symbol of the symbolless ... Bodhisattva Vows keep us in a good direction for All Sentient Beings, the Verse of Atonement washes us clean ... sewing is a powerful practice in non-attaining ... Metta open our hearts to others ...

Once you strip down to "bare bones" you have to start asking what is worthwhile to add back.

Plus, I have a couple of Tibetan Buddhist friends (and Soto Zen priests too really into the pomp and ceremony) who will say that, for them, all the arcane ceremony, semi-magical rituals, magical figures and wild beliefs all really speak to the heart too. It may not be your or my cup of tea, but some folks really digg it. Speaking of "earth Zen," when I was staying at a traditional Soto monastery in Japan for a few days, they did a complicated ceremony to appease the "earth spirits" of the place where the monastery is located. Here is a taste (and I emphasize that this is a traditional Soto Zen ceremony):

Two people in top places (closest to altar) together bow with gassho in concert with sounding of cymbals {meihatsu 鳴鈸}, and in tandem advance to altar and burn incense, return to places. In general, procedure is for those who leave ranks to advance with folded hands {shashu shinzen 叉手進前} and return to places in gassho {gasshô ki i 合掌帰位}. ...


(cymbals)

...
When leaving ranks and burning incense is finished, rector again advances before earth spirit, picks up recitations text {nenju mon 念誦文}, censes it with incense smoke, raises it respectfully with both hands {hôji 捧持}, returns to place, initiates recitations.

Recitation Text {nenju mon 念誦文}
[Spring] We are keenly aware that the spring winds fan the plains, that the green emperor rules in every direction, and that the period of winter is now at an end. Spring has come again, arriving as it should in the natural scheme of things. Throughout the winter our practice has been without hindrance, and the entire assembly has been safe. Chanting and upholding the glorious names of those possessed of myriad virtues, we respectfully repay the countless beings that support our lives.[2] I respectfully invite the venerable assembly to chant {chôsei 長声} ...

We dedicate all of the merit from the preceding recitations to the dragon spirits of the earth who are protectors of the true dharma. We humbly pray that their spiritual luminosity will aid us; that they will widely extend their beneficial protection; that this sangha shall flourish; and that they shall long confer their selfless blessings.

http://indras-net.org/?page_id=62

At first I really disliked it, felt it silly. Then I just dropped resistance, with a "when in Rome, chant as the Romans chant" attitude. Then I also felt that, whether one actually believes in "earth dragons" or not, well, it speaks to the heart. Some folks may need that too ... some folks really thrive in the power of it all and find meaning there ...

... although you won't see anything like that at Treeleaf soon. **

Gassho, J

SatToday

** For point of disclosure, once a year at New Years my family and I go to a little tiny altar in a corner of our land here in Japan which supposedly contains the "earth spirits" for our house (about a meter tall, it looks kinda like the picture). We offer water and a bow, thanks for keeping us safe. Hey, living in earthquake country, as we do, why take any chances? My philosophy about such things ... it might not help, but it sure can't hurt.

Anyway, my wife makes me ... and she is the god in our house who is really scary if not appeased!

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

I think it's very important for us to keep our Japanese roots as alive as we can... even if some of them are hard to understand or to incorporate into our practice. Forms and tradition are important because they connect us to our practices, help us focus in the present and they make clear to the mind that our practice is important and sacred.

The way I see things for what I have read, listened and saw in Buddhist places (at least in Mexico), is that at some extent for us westerners, Asian culture is mystic and fascinating. A lot of folks I know they feel really connected to, say, Titbet... even if they were born in Nicaragua. Their practice is sacred and they take it with such respect and joy that it's something to behold.

All things change, and Zen is no different. Buddhism has been able to survive millenia thanks that it's been able to keep tradition but at the same time, it has adapted to all cultures it has touched. And that's thanks to people willing to keep the forms, lore and traditions alive.

But I could be wrong

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Joyo]

The Zen tradition comes from China, Korea and Japan. Now it's becoming World Zen. Or maybe Earth Zen. I think unless you strip it down to the basics, it won't take off. For me the basics are sitting, bowing and chanting. The basic liturgy would be the heart and diamond sutras.

SAT today

Beautiful!!

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jishin]

The Pale Blue Dot:

http://youtu.be/wupToqz1e2g

Where is Japan? Japanese culture? Zen?



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Risho]

Right, the key point: it has adapted. Tradition for tradition's sake is no good. Earth gods, kitchen demons, not my cup of tea, so I'll pass. But for others, maybe they like pagan rituals, I don't know. I mean I think while it's important to honor traditions, we don't do things that people did in medieval Japan because we know better, or at least we have our own set of superstitions now. I'm just not going to bow to a kitchen god; I don't feel that has anything to do with Zen. However, if there are others who feel that way, I'm not going to rain on their parade. I think we need room to allow for both traditional and non-traditional zen practice to emerge.

I feel if Dogen wore a track suit and Adidas (a sort of Run DM-Dogen lol) all the acolytes would be wearing track suits and Adidas. Or maybe in 1200 years, people will have laptops and a buddha on their altar to honor our generation.

So from one perspective the practices seem extra, but from another perspective, wearing the rakusu and doing the other practices binds us and honors those from the past, so I don't think it's such a bad thing.

I don't have any answers, and like with most topics on this forum, I'm more confused than ever now which is good hahahah; if I was locked into a viewpoint, that would most definitely be the opposite of what Zen is trying to offer.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Edit: It's very interesting, our interactions in these forums; I'm often going to come across as very skeptical then something that Jundo, Kyonin, Joyo, Byrne, Kaishin, Sozan (and everyone else just got lazy typing. lol) says sort of just sinks in and a new perspective activates. Like I was going to come in here "on blast" and say guys we are in the 21st century, but then what Jundo and Kyonin said sort of hit home, and when I was typing I realized what was being said, which sort of helped me to understand why we do these traditions.

I think I was going to be cynical because part of me forgot why we do this; so anyway, thank you for this post Sozan. This is something near and dear to my heart, and thank you all for your responses; these damned posts are just so good sometimes; they really help me to clarify and strengthen my practice.

Ok, enough corny, now back to cynicism. hahhhhahha

[Rich]

I'm not opposed to Japanese, Korean, Chinese, southeast Asian Zen cultural forms. I am opposed to mindless rituals that put people to sleep rather than waking them up. In Earth Zen I would like to see artists, poets and musicians play an important role. They are not as brainwashed and conditioned. The west has a rich cultural tradition in art, music, and dance. Why can't some of that be part of Zen?

Life is more a celebration than a funeral.
SAT today

[Joyo]

This thread reminds me of a story from my family history. My father was raised in a very tight-knit, German Mennonite community. When he married my mother, she experienced a lot of prejudice and racism-----even though she had converted and was also a Mennonite. But-----she was Hungarian, not German!!! So, to put it in the right terms, she did not speak the language or know the culture, or have the right heritage. That caused quite a stir, back in the day.

I like that, Rich, life is more a celebration than a funeral =)

Gassho,
JOyo
sat today

[Frank]

I like all the openness of this thread ...

Raise your hand if you've been to Japan? Ok, hands down.
Raise your hand if you are fluent in Japanese? Ok, hands down.
Raise your hand if you ARE 100% Japanese by birth? Ok, hands down.

My point is, that most of us would have never found this wonderful teaching, IF we had not been open enough to accept each other, and accept the changes in this teaching. The modern technology of the computer has opened up THIS WORLD and COMMUNITY of Greenleaf.... Without it, we may still be stumbling around a bit longer, trying to figure this all out on our own.

Since there have been martial arts references that were very well put, may I add one more...

Bruce Lee said of his style of martial arts which he coined Jeet Kune Do ....
Take what you can from it and make it yours, and the rest throw away. After all, it's only a name.

Gassho my friends
Frank
Sat today

[Byrne]

Came across this recently from our good buddy Sheng Yen. On the one hand he is talking of superstitious nonsense. The kind of stuff that turns off a lot of us rational western types. On the other hand, in a broader sense, he is talking about rebirth in a way I don't think any of us here would argue with.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Risho]

Rich - I really like how you are articulating your points.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

Came across this recently from our good buddy Sheng Yen. On the one hand he is talking of superstitious nonsense. The kind of stuff that turns off a lot of us rational western types. On the other hand, in a broader sense, he is talking about rebirth in a way I don't think any of us here would argue with.

Hi Byrne,

Well, personally, that is precisely the kind of Teaching that you will not be hearing in this Community because I believe it is superstition and baseless about any way you look at it. I leave it to other people to practice and believe such things, but I feel that Buddhism (at least the flavor here) can do without it. Maybe I will come back as an angry ghost for saying so.

And I am not sure what you mean by "he is talking about rebirth in a way I don't think any of us here would argue with." I would argue with it. His very mechanical description of "good acts lead to good effects" is something that I view as simplistic, unlikely to be accurate as a model for how the world works or an an explanation for why good and bad things happen, and thus I do not personally see such a claim as true by any reasonable explanation (more power to others who do have faith in that).

In any event, such beliefs ... in ghosts and spirits and mechanical rebirth and Karmic effects ... need not be central to Zen Practice. I am hoping to offer a flavor of Buddhism practice quite free of all such questionable beliefs, thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Byrne]

Hi Jundo,

No it is definitely not Treeleaf's style and yes it probably is too simplistic at face value. You are very much a "just the facts" kind of guy and you frequently warn against objectifying Buddhism's many abstract concepts. (Dharmakaya, Amitabha, all those bodshisattvas, etc) Supernatural stuff isn't my bag either and I'm not trying to promote this way of thinking.

But, there are a lot of people in the world. A whole lot. And we all frequently take our own perspectives for granted. We also frequently overlook the limitations of our own perspective which is the most deceptive illusion of all. If you want to see how much superstition exists amongst rational modern people just ask any American who they're backing for president and why.

As for how he is describing rebirth I said in a broad sense, not a specific sense. The consequences of our actions go on long after we're finished and manifest is all kinds of ways. If someone prefers to call these lingering karmic effects ghosts or deities I wouldn't say they are fundamentally wrong. Where we can go wrong is how we may understand this kind of terminology for sure. The semantic and misunderstanding abyss is vast. Given your response, I'm guessing you have lots of experience and issues with superstitious misunderstandings within the context of Buddhism.

Every now and then I like to step out of my comfort zone and think about what else going on, at least temporarily. Or maybe I'm being too spiritually diplomatic. But I've been traveling for a living for 15 years. I have to deal with all manner of people from wildly differing points of view, levels of education, and cultural trappings. I have to reinvent reality a lot.

Gassho

Sat Today