multicultural Zen

[Risho]

If someone else's point of view is rife with superstitions we need not encourage that. I know we all have our own superstitions, but as human beings (zen practitioner or not) we should examine our beliefs and drop them if they are just useless or baseless. I think that too is what zen is about; in that respect it is very scientific.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Bokusei]

Thank you Sozan for starting this thread. It is a subject I've been mulling over for sometime and it has been interesting reading everyone's contributions.
Deep gratitude to you all.

Gassho

Bokusei

sat today




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[Ben]

In any event, it such beliefs ... in ghosts and spirits and mechanical rebirth and Karmic effects ... not be central to Zen Practice. I am hoping to offer a flavor of Buddhism practice quite free of all such questionable beliefs, thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

This is, more or less, why I came here after having spent the better part of a year taking weekly classes at a local Chung Tai Chan monastery. I have great respect for the shifus there and I value my experiences studying with them, but there's just far too much stuff in their practice and teachings that feels like superstitious nonsense to me. Though other folks, interestingly enough including some who come from certain Western religious backgrounds, seem to connect with it. Dharma gates really are numberless, but that particular set of gates just isn't right for me.

On the other hand, I really like the traditional Japanese aspects of Treeleaf, though I'm still getting used to them and I realize that my attachment (!) to them may be largely aesthetic.

At any rate, right now this place feels very right for where I happen to be. Thanks to Jundo and the rest of you for making it so.

Gassho,
Ben

SatToday

[Washin]

Hi all,

I read this article today and found it interesting for sharing here..

http://www.lionsroar.com/forgotten-encounters-of-tibetan-zen/

Gassho
Washin
sat-today

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Eishuu]

Really interesting article, thanks.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jakuden]

Thanks Washin that is very interesting indeed!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Mp]

Hi all,

I read this article today and found it interesting for sharing here..

http://www.lionsroar.com/forgotten-encounters-of-tibetan-zen/

Gassho
Washin
sat-today

Thank you Washin. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

No it is definitely not Treeleaf's style and yes it probably is too simplistic at face value. You are very much a "just the facts" kind of guy and you frequently warn against objectifying Buddhism's many abstract concepts. (Dharmakaya, Amitabha, all those bodshisattvas, etc) Supernatural stuff isn't my bag either and I'm not trying to promote this way of thinking.

But, there are a lot of people in the world. A whole lot. And we all frequently take our own perspectives for granted. We also frequently overlook the limitations of our own perspective which is the most deceptive illusion of all. If you want to see how much superstition exists amongst rational modern people just ask any American who they're backing for president and why.

As for how he is describing rebirth I said in a broad sense, not a specific sense. The consequences of our actions go on long after we're finished and manifest is all kinds of ways. If someone prefers to call these lingering karmic effects ghosts or deities I wouldn't say they are fundamentally wrong. Where we can go wrong is how we may understand this kind of terminology for sure. The semantic and misunderstanding abyss is vast. Given your response, I'm guessing you have lots of experience and issues with superstitious misunderstandings within the context of Buddhism.

Every now and then I like to step out of my comfort zone and think about what else going on, at least temporarily. Or maybe I'm being too spiritually diplomatic. But I've been traveling for a living for 15 years. I have to deal with all manner of people from wildly differing points of view, levels of education, and cultural trappings. I have to reinvent reality a lot.

Gassho

Sat Today

Hi Byrne,

I know that we all may suffer from superstitions (my joke is that, in the 23rd Century, folks will laugh at our naive belief in gravity), and that there are "more things in heaven and earth than dreamt in your philosophy, Horatio." However, that does not mean that there is truly a monster in Loch Ness, that psychic healers can cure cancer, that Elvis is still alive or that we are literally reborn as ghosts or puppy dogs (the latter might be true, but I strongly doubt it and find supposed evidence unreliable). Buddhism is plagued by such old wives tales, hocus-pocus incantations, myths posing as historical fact. We can do without all that and, anyway, it is not important to Zen Practice.

I did not find Rev. Sheng Yen talking about these ghosts, or about one-to-one "good effects from good actions" Karma, in a purely symbolic or psychological sense, or as some lingering loosely defined effects on others lives after we are gone. It sounds from what you posted, and other things I have read by him, that he meant it in a pretty literal way. There may be such ghosts, and many folks in traditional corners of Buddhism believe in them. However, in this Community, I prefer to keep the ghosts and the Loch Ness monster outside.

I read this article today and found it interesting for sharing here..

http://www.lionsroar.com/forgotten-e...f-tibetan-zen/

Hi Washin,

There was all manner of mixing and matching as Zen and other forms of Buddhism traveled up and down the Silk Road, and from country to country. From what I have seen of the book, Zen mixed with some Tibetan esoteric beliefs when it was prevalent in Tibet (it was later purged by Tibetan Buddhists). The result were some hybrids of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism which existed for a short while. That is what the book is focused upon.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Sim175]

What attracts me to Zen in particular more than any other school of Buddhism is its simple, elegant, minimalist set of rules & practice. As far as I understand, the core practice is zazen to be more awake to reality, and the rest is somewhat complimentary. Useful for some, less for others, to each their own.

I'm not very attracted to rituals and chanting and I might not ever practice with them, but they are part of the tradition, and I can only encourage whoever wants to continue that tradition to do so. If it helps them, why not?

In the end, anything cultural is a man-made concept or habit, there's nothing inherently true & absolute about it.

My two cents about it. Enough rambling!

Sim
Sat today

[Jundo]

What attracts me to Zen in particular more than any other school of Buddhism is its simple, elegant, minimalist set of rules & practice. As far as I understand, the core practice is zazen to be more awake to reality, and the rest is somewhat complimentary. Useful for some, less for others, to each their own.

I'm not very attracted to rituals and chanting and I might not ever practice with them, but they are part of the tradition, and I can only encourage whoever wants to continue that tradition to do so. If it helps them, why not?

In the end, anything cultural is a man-made concept or habit, there's nothing inherently true & absolute about it.

My two cents about it. Enough rambling!

Sim
Sat today

Hi Sim,

I must say that has more to do with how it is Practiced and has come to emphasize seated Zazen over all else in the West. In Japan, where the Zen Schools might be considered the "church" much like the Catholic Church, a priest's daily life might be said to be occupied with morning to night rituals ... small and personal, or large and complex rituals ... from the long dance of the Morning Service (see video below) to personal chants and bows when entering the bath or toilet. Yes, in a Soto Zen monastery, Zazen is the core and is said to be "all" ... but as some scholars have pointed out, when rising from the Cushion, all daily activities are also "Zazen" in its widest meaning.

It was so in Dogen's time too ... (p. 75 here) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=kVZpAgAAQBAJ&dq=%E2%80%9C%E2%80%98Just+Sitting%3F%22+%22Dogen%E2%80%99s+Take+on+Zazen%2C+Sutra+Reading%2C+and+other+Conventional+Buddhist+Practices%E2%80%9D&q=cast+by+moden+scholars#v=snippet&q=cast%20by%20moden%20scholars&f=false

It is true too for most other forms of Buddhism in the West. For example, the very stripped down, lay focused "Insight" and "Mindfulness" schools come from the Theravada in South Asia where monks are largely concerned with rituals and other activities, few meditating at all.

Here is what morning looks like at Sojiji, the head temple of Soto Zen. Learning dozens and dozens of ceremonies like this, and then performing them, is perhaps the activity which takes most of a monk's time, far more than spent sitting on the cushion (which, by the way, is also a ritual).

There is a great power, beauty, harmony in these Ceremonies ... pouring in oneself all to find one self ... for those who are drawn to the Practice. Here, at Treeleaf as with most Western groups, we tend to emphasize Zazen and are minimalist (very minimalist) on Ceremony.

Better said, in our Sangha, we make all our morning to night ... changing baby diapers, putting gas in the car, working in the office, coming home ... our Sacred Ceremony and Ritual, all Zazen in widest meaning.**

Sojiji Head Temple of Soto-shu ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBF2q0p9pdg

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

** And before someone asks, although "all is Zazen and all there is", only "seated Zazen" is "all there is" too and is indispensible. When sitting, sit.

[Washin]

There was all manner of mixing and matching as Zen and other forms of Buddhism traveled up and down the Silk Road, and from country to country. From what I have seen of the book, Zen mixed with some Tibetan esoteric beliefs when it was prevalent in Tibet (it was later purged by Tibetan Buddhists). The result were some hybrids of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism which existed for a short while. That is what the book is focused upon.

Gassho, Jundo

[Risho]

I don't want to overstay my welcome on this topic but I just want to say that this thread exemplifies why this is my home.

I can get on soap boxes; I think most of the time when I get adamant I'm rejecting my own, previously incomplete understanding, which means to say this happens over and over and over as I practice.

I feel our practice here does speak to the heart, my heart.

Sometimes I reject it; sometimes I embrace it; its my pattern of growth here so I thank you for entertaining the musings of a beginner going through the motions of practice.

Ultimately what we have here is beautiful; Jundo has shown ways of living a true life full of gratitude and growth, full of mystery, full of zen.

Now I'm done posting on this topic but I really just wanted to share my gratitude for you all.

Gassho

Risho
-sattodau