Too much Zazen?

[Jishin]

Mu and shikantaza are both breathing.

Hakuin had a bad case of Zen sickness.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Entai]

I have never encountered this "problem". Now, "too little"... well, that's another story.

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Theophan]

Thanks everyone,
Wonderful food for thought.
Gassho,

Theophan
(Sekishi)
Sat today

[Jakuden]

My guess would be that someone could turn Zazen into an addiction of sorts... a perfectionist type personality could perhaps be susceptible, or perhaps someone who is just seeking to "numb out" and forget the rest of the world just like they would do with another distraction. Praying, or physical exercise, all sorts of things can be used for this. Another nice thing about Treeleaf is the "keep it real and take it out into the world" attitude here. There is no guilt over missing a scheduled sit when practice is instead time spent with family or on household chores. Also, the precepts tell us that it is not enough to "do no evil" and "do good" but to also "save all beings." I think this has to be done off the cushion in part at least.

Interestingly, I did see this echoed in my short visit to the monastery too. A lot of Zazen, yes, but overall a place that hummed with Right Action--everyone working in harmony for the good of the group, getting done the necessary work while always being kind and respectful to others, taking mishaps (!) and hiccups in stride. It felt like Zazen was the foundation and support for their way of life, not like they were working to support time spent doing Zazen... a subtle difference perhaps, but important.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

My guess would be that someone could turn Zazen into an addiction of sorts... a perfectionist type personality could perhaps be susceptible, or perhaps someone who is just seeking to "numb out" and forget the rest of the world just like they would do with another distraction. Praying, or physical exercise, all sorts of things can be used for this.

I must say, while I hesitate to criticize the practice that folks develop as right for themselves, sometimes one can get a sense of folks who by sitting long LONG and hard hours and hours a day (not just in Sesshin, but as a regular practice daily) ... might cross a line into obsession and compulsion, even addiction, clutching on to Zazen. I know such folks. I don't think that is good either. Everything in balance, all in moderation. Even the Buddha did not sit all day every day (although sometimes he did for a stretch).

Anything ... even a good thing ... whether Zazen or ice cream ... can turn to excess.

Time again for the classic Sona and the Lute tale ...

[The Buddha said], "Sona, you were a musician and you used to play the lute. Tell me, Sona, did you produce good music when the lute string was well tuned, neither too tight nor too loose?"

"I was able to produce good music, Lord," replied Sona.

"What happened when the strings were too tightly wound up?"

"I could not produce any music, Lord," said Sona.

"What happened when the strings were too slack?"

"I could not produce any music at all, Lord," replied Sona

"Sona ... You have been straining too hard in your meditation. Do it in a relaxed way, but without being slack. Try it again and you will experience the good result."

Now, it is also important to recall that lutes come in different sizes!



So the length of one person's strings may not be the same as another, and it is important to find the length and harmony for you. Some may be more and some a bit less. If you put it down for a few days, be sure to come back.

But whatever the case, do not neglect the Practice ... not too loose, not too tight.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

Jundo, I like to story of Sona and the Lute tale. The same moral can be applied to parenting and work, or really anything. I'm going to write that one down to remember it. Thank you

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Nameless]

Don't get lost in Emptiness.

Gassho, J

Yes! Right on! Thank you!

Gassho, John
SatToday

[Jishin]

Don't get lost in Emptiness.

http://youtu.be/tIMbJQssvG4

It's a round trip. :-)

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mitty-san]

I was actually thinking of starting a new thread to ask something like this but now there's no need.

Thanks Jishin for starting this thread and to Jundo and everyone for all the good responses.

Here's the full Sona Sutta too if anyone is interested: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....055.than.html.

Gassho,

Paul

Sat today.

[Josan]

Thank you all for such wise countil. I have felt a little zazen addiction recently, just appreciated the peace that the zafu seemed to offer. Instead, I now try to bring zazen out into the world with me - the old chop wood, carry water thing - and feel a better balance. Gassho from the perfectionist Josan.

[Josan]

Oh and sat today

[Jakuden]

Thanks for the link Paul, had not read the whole Sona Sutta before.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi Mitty.

Thank you for the link. I shall read it a little more (or not) until it sinks in

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Hoko]

This is a fantastic thread! So much wonderful input!

Being a creature of extremes it's not too hard for me to see how someone could get addicted to zazen.
I myself have fallen into the trap of "if a little is good then a lot must be better" many MANY times.

There have been times I found myself sacrificing sleep to get more time on the zafu and as a result I became a cranky mess.
I would snap at someone in my family and my wife would say "that's not very Zen!" and smoke would curl out of my ears.
(I would get angry because I got angry. Lol.)

Then I would think "this isn't making me a better person!"
And THEN I would think "but you're not supposed to sit zazen to become a better person!"
And THEN I would get mad at myself for trying to make myself a better self when there's no self to make better!

Skip a day. Get some sleep. Sit zazen again.
Everything's better!

Moderation can be it's own reward.
Sometimes we have to go to extremes to realize this.
Funny, that.

I am very grateful for the opportunity to participate with you all.
Gassho _/\_
-K2
#SatToday

[Jundo]

There is a sweet spot (or range) ... not pushing too hard, but neither to loose ... not attached and clinging, just sincerely and diligently embracing ... not too relaxed, not too tight ... not a prisoner, not neglecting ... acting yet with a heart that is still ... not doing nor not not doing, just doing-non-doing ...

It is just so in the sitting posture as well: Not rigidly upright like iron, not slumping and slouching forward ... simply poised and still.

Gassho, J

SatToday