21st century Zen

[Tai Shi]

Often I feel self alone in my man cave, lingering below my best friend, and today I began to allow my doctor's 21st century study of 120,000 + people to determine which less harmful relaxing agent to adopt, and which more damaging medication to ease away from, thus allowing me better practice with Shikantaza at the center. Just sitting.
Elgwyn
sat to day
calm poetry
Gasho

[Hoseki]

Hi Chankin,

I enjoyed reading this and I thought I might make a few comments. Basically its me working through what your saying and adding the thoughts that occurred to me. If I miss the mark feel free to let me know.

If I understand what your saying I think state 1 might also be described as an open awareness. That is awareness that isn't blocking awareness of other phenomenon or stimulus. I'm thinking of the way we can be absorbed in a task and kind of forget our surroundings. Or when I'm playing a video game and don't hear my wife asking me to do something . This kind of state would be something like what Uchiyama Roshi describes in "Opening the Hand of Thought" (were reading it now.) phenomenon or stimulus are like the scenery on a trip. We see them and are aware of them but we don't really dwell on them nor are we gripped by them (e.g. we can't look away etc...)

Is this a good description of state 1?

State 3

I would suggest that there are times when we don't respond with the intellect. I'm thinking of mindlessly scratching an itch or smacking a fly that is trying to eat a very small portion of you

sometimes State 3 and 2 are operating at the same time and feeding into each other e.g. again Uchiyama Roshi describes something like a "train of thought" in Chapter 3 (C`C`C`). - Am I aware of my thinking when I'm thinking it? - So we respond to a stimulus e.g. a passive aggressive insult but instead of responding outwardly we think about what we could have said and then we thinking about what the first person might say and then how we are feeling etc... Even thought the initial stimulus is gone we might still be carrying it around with us. This cycle can end when we get tired, fall asleep, die or get distracted.

State 4

I don't know if we return to state 1 so much as a return to state 1.1. That is to say our CNS might be different and this open awareness may have a different qualities for having gone through states 2 and 3. Perhaps it could be said, that I'm taking about the content of the awareness rather than the state of the CNS. Maybe! But I'm not sure they can be separated in a way that reflects our experiences.

I'm also wondering if we can conceive of these states taking place more or less simultaneously (I think Jundo was suggesting something along these lines.) What would that look like as an experience we might have?

Anywho, my lunch break is over so I have to go back to work. Does this make sense?

Gassho,
Sat today
Dude (Adam)



EDIT: I forgot to mention that other Buddhist sects acheive different mind states that might not jive with State 1. E.g. the Jhanas.

When we read the scriptures might I suggest that we are trying to understand what Gotama meant when he said :” Nirvana is the extinction of dukkha.”
Since his death there have been many attempts to explain what he meant.
The Pali Cannon consists of 45 volumes.
The Chinese scriptures consist of 100 volumes , each of 1000 closely worded pages.
The Tibetan scriptures consist of 325 volumes.
The Dharma was transmitted orally for 500 years.
All of that contributed by highly intelligent philosophers and experts well experienced in the fruits of correct meditation who struggled to express their experiences logically.
This has resulted in his teaching being interpreted differently by many schools and factions. Even Zen, the teaching outside the scriptures, has fragmented.

Here is an attempt to get to the heart and core of Buddhism which lives hidden in this vast body of literature. Below is why zazen works :

Here is 21st century Zen – a direct pointing at the common human goal:
As the first signs of a central nervous system began to appear in the history of the evolution of life on our planet, the model that primordial, hypothetical creatures exhibited was:

State 1/ Passive but alert awareness.

State 2/ Reception of a stimulus.
The stimulus could be pleasure, the demands of appetite, danger or pain.

State 3/ Reacting to that stimulus by successful action guided by intellect [using conscious mental activity} until the stimulus is gone
Conscious mental activity is all the tools intellect has at its disposal; it is the perception, accumulation, recall and association of data – all thinking, imagining .planning and predicting etc.
The response to pleasure would be to sustain it; to appetite to satisfy it; to danger and pain, to avoid them. All responses would engage all the mental skills the primitive creature possessed.

State 4/ Return to a state of alert passive awareness.
Once the stimulus has been removed by finding a solution to the problems it presented, the possessor of such a system would return to a mental state of alert but passive awareness. You could say it would be reacquainted with its original mind. Or that it would have peace of mind – conventionally called happiness.
This is the model from which our own highly sophisticated central nervous system has evolved.


The rules that apply to the original primordial system also apply to ours.

However, for us, as life has grown more complex, the stimuli proliferated, and the responses to those stimuli have overwhelmed us to such an extent that modern men rarely if ever experience the first element of the model from which their central nervous system has evolved – alert, passive awareness – profound peace-of-mind.

Meditation (zazen) is a way to reacquaint us with that first element - passive awareness – peace of mind - and integrate it into our daily lives.

[Joyo]

I'm always skeptical of people who use bold type when they post on forums. Just saying... :-)

Gassho,

Kirk

SatToday;wellSortOfAboutToSit

Why? This person was not using bold type to be rude or shout at anyone. Simply highlighting the main points.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Byrne]

This is just my little opinion, but the idea that meditative practices have stages or levels sort of implies that there is something to "get" and from my kiddie pool experience with zazen the benefits or "deeper levels" just kinda come and go on their own without any interference on my part. Sometimes I'm feeling very stage 1. Sometimes stage 8 then back to stage 2 the next day.

If Jundo and Treeleaf has taught me anything it's that if you want to sit zazen you need to actually sit zazen as regularly as possible within your capabilities. Beyond that, it's wise to keep in touch with likeminded folks doing their own thing for a little perspective.

Gassho

sat today

[chankin]

Hello Jundo,
My post is an understanding of why zazen works - why we must allow those clouds to drift away and reveal the blue sky . Its main thrust is that all thinking (all conscious mental activity) was in the beginning, is now and always will be a tool we use to satisfy our appetites and solve our problems. In the primitive life form I used as an example to explain the process, it’s easy to see that is how its central nervous system works. However we evolved from such life forms and our own central nervous system is still modelled on that one. Thinking is a tool. Once it has done its job we lay it aside, no matter how temporarily. The feeling we experience when we do this is peace-of-mind - conventional happiness. But modern humans are so overwhelmed by stimuli, like the ones you listed, they rarely do. Zazen reacquaints them with the ability to allow this to happen in their daily lives. 21st Century Zen should persuade more people to meditate, because it is a rational pointing at the mind of man. It links the results of meditation to a familiar feeling we all experience (in a very diluted form); it grounds Zen in the real world.
It has considerable advantages over the traditional attempts to do this:
1// Life in general is not suffering [at least for those of us lucky enough to live in an affluent, trouble- free part of the world.] . It’s just not as good as it could be. Our continuous voluntary involvement in “thinking” - conscious mental activity – obstructs our access to much happiness.
2/ We lose the self [the ego] not because it does not exist but for no other reason than it is a set of ideas and all ideas must be allowed to fade away in meditation
3/ Thoughts are not errors, defilements, evil or any other derogatory epithets used to describe the actions of the intellect. They are essential to solving life’s problems . They also instruct is in the art of correct meditation. 21st Century Zen explains how they play no part in our being happy.
4/ The world is real and viewing it with an utterly tranquil mind will not change its appearance in the slightest way. As Dogen said, “fish still swim and birds still fly.”
5/ All the irrationality in Zen would be swept away, consigned to the past. The message would be clear and unambiguous , giving every person in the world good reasons to spend a little time in meditation and integrate the happiness they gain access to into their daily lives - where it belongs.
6/ On the downside. Birth, the pains of living , old age and death would still be with us, in spite of any enlightenment we might achieve; nothing can eradicate them. If this was not true, Gotama, Asvagosha and Nagarjuna would be with us today. On the bright side, pleasures would be still accessible in our daily lives; no need to renounce those.
Colin

[Juki]

It has considerable advantages over the traditional attempts to do this:
1// Life in general is not suffering [at least for those of us lucky enough to live in an affluent, trouble- free part of the world.] . It’s just not as good as it could be. Our continuous voluntary involvement in “thinking” - conscious mental activity – obstructs our access to much happiness.
2/ We lose the self [the ego] not because it does not exist but for no other reason than it is a set of ideas and all ideas must be allowed to fade away in meditation
3/ Thoughts are not errors, defilements, evil or any other derogatory epithets used to describe the actions of the intellect. They are essential to solving life’s problems . They also instruct is in the art of correct meditation. 21st Century Zen explains how they play no part in our being happy.
4/ The world is real and viewing it with an utterly tranquil mind will not change its appearance in the slightest way. As Dogen said, “fish still swim and birds still fly.”
5/ All the irrationality in Zen would be swept away, consigned to the past. The message would be clear and unambiguous , giving every person in the world good reasons to spend a little time in meditation and integrate the happiness they gain access to into their daily lives - where it belongs.
6/ On the downside. Birth, the pains of living , old age and death would still be with us, in spite of any enlightenment we might achieve; nothing can eradicate them. If this was not true, Gotama, Asvagosha and Nagarjuna would be with us today. On the bright side, pleasures would be still accessible in our daily lives; no need to renounce those.
Colin

Wow. You start by negating the Four Noble Truths and then proceed to impose a conceptual framework upon a practice that teaches us to see past concepts. Sounds like you need to maybe start your own church, or school, or support group or something. Good luck with that.

Gassho,
Juki

#sattoday

[Rich]

Thanks Colin. Need to digest everything you said. Some good points. Are these your ideas or is there a 21 century Zen org you are speaking about?

Sat today

[chankin]

Hello Dude,
That first element of the model is the state we humans fail to experience now because we engage in obsessive compulsive thinking. We are overwhelmed by the problems that every-day life confronts us with.
Consider that primitive life form I used as an example in the original post. It has in its mental repertoire an array of instinctive responses that are only triggered when it is stimulated by the proximity of food or danger. There is no reason to employ those reactions until a stimulus is received. It is in a state of alert but passive awareness. It is happy - because that is what happiness is in creatures with our sort of central nervous system. It is our primitive ancestor. Our mind works the same way his does.
In the untrained mind there is a permanent undercurrent of random and habitual thoughts.
It can generally be stated that we never feel that alert but passive awareness – that profound peace-of-mind - until we have practiced zazen for some time
Jundo and the other teachers here will tell you how to do that.
Colin
sat today

[chankin]

Hello Rich,
It's all my own work - for what it's worth!
Colin

[RichardH]

Hello Rich,
..... for what it's worth!
Colin

Hi Colin. That's a breather. When someone shows up claiming the special best understanding, the Dharma for a new century,..... Well you can only expect ...

Gassho and have a great day.

Daizan
Sat today

[chankin]

Juki
Here are the four noble truths:
1/Ordinary life is misery (suffering).
Let me ask you a question. Is your life misery?
2/ The cause of suffering is desire.
It is currently believed by many that if the cause of suffering is to be efficiently removed, all appetites must remain unsatisfied , because all desire must be abandoned. The conclusion is then forced upon them that the Buddhist’s goal is unachievable during any man’s lifetime because in order to achieve it we must not eat or drink.
Might I suggest a different emphasis? Some of these cravings and desires are life sustaining appetites. Thirst, hunger and sex are some of the very powerful appetites which must be satisfied. We satisfy them using conscious mental activity -- that is its role. So, if life is to be sustained (always a good thing), we must eat, drink and reproduce among other necessary activities.
The cause of what has been described as “suffering” is not desire as defined above but is obsessive /compulsive thinking. This is a more sustainable idea.
3/ There is relief from suffering.
It is essential to restrict "thinking" to its proper role.
4/ It can be destroyed by following the eightfold path.
Which is true. But the most important element is the last one – right contemplation.
Might I suggest a revised list:
1/ The untrained person can be overwhelmed by moods of dissatisfaction, lack of fulfilment and discontentment.
2/ The cause of those moods is over-indulgence in obsessive/compulsive “thinking” -conscious mental activity - random and habitual mental activity.
3/ There is a method for banishing those moods and gaining sure access to peace –of-mind - conventionally called happiness..
4/That method is the noble eightfold path, the lynchpin of which is right meditation in which we restrict conscious mental activity to its proper role. It plays no part in our being happy.
Colin
Sat today

[Risho]

Chankin,

My opinions from practice and study here.

First, you should read (everyone should) "After Buddhism" by Stephen Batchelor.

But think about it -- would you follow any path that told you having any desire was bad? If anyone would follow that path, their sanity should be questioned.

We have desire; it's natural and good. To paraphrase Jundo, if we didn't, we'd end up still living in caves.

Desire is good. The desire to help, to practice, to find ourselves, to live a true way.

So what do we do with that? Suffering is not an adequate word for Dukkha. It's too limiting. You'll read that, hear that, etc from countless Zen practitioners and teachers. Some simply will not translate the word to emphasize how it needs to be experienced and tasted.

Life is suffering, but not all life is suffering. Life can be beautiful as well. But there's this grasping and clinging we have. We want to have what we want, and we want as much as we want of it. And we want to avoid what we don't want. There's this "dissatisfaction" with things.

We are going to die; everyone we love is going to die. So one way to stop this would be to not love anyone, but that's not life! Losing is part of life. It's a beautiful, poignant, bittersweet part of life. Death is just as important as life, and this practice allows us to be here with all of it.

I don't think we are supposed, nor should we destroy anything (and there isn't anything to destroy after all :P ). This is all the craziness of what it is to be human.

But, in the face of all of it, we can be right here, present, not grasping and not pushing away, we can live all of it. That is a full life.

I don't like the idea of dying. I don't like the idea of going to work some days. But when I approach things, dropping my little wants.. if I look at it like there are 8 year olds with cancer and people with crazier problems than I can fathom, there are people with the same problems as me, the same wants and anxieties, and there are much better humans than me who have died, there are people dying every day; there will be people dying when I die. I am never alone in all of this, even though it feels that way.

So I don't think we should try to restrict ourselves from any of life; this practice is about tasting all of it without grasping or pushing. And I think the only way to do this is by realizing we are in it together; we are not as separate as we think.

And knowing this, we can help people. We can "save all beings", to steal some esoteric lingo, because we know what it's like to suffer so we can be more gentle in the way we treat others, or we can be more harsh if that's called for, but our actions come from a place of connection and empathy, not from separateness and fear of losing.

Also, saying "I" is a habit. When I say "I", I didn't invent this obviously; these aren't my ideas; I'm not that egotistical; I'm just sharing what I've learned from Jundo, Treeleaf and countless Buddhas.

The most important point is not to try to "get" anything. You don't get "Emptiness" or anything. You GIVE everything; you have to experience this painful and beautiful path.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Byrne]

Colin,

With all due respect, there is a lot about Buddhism you do not understand. It's cool that you're diving into this stuff with so much enthusiasm, but you're not getting all your details correct. I would suggest you start by inquiring about the Middle Way, what that means, and why it's so important to our Buddhist practice. I'm not sure that your 21st century Zen has anything to do with Zen or Buddhism at all. I had a lot of similar misconceptions which eventually got cleared up with the help of good teachers and a supportive sangha. This is an excellent environment to sort through all that stuff. You will get honest answers and you will always be entitled to a differing opinion so long as you remain respectful. Maybe Zen isn't for you. Maybe it's just what you're looking for. An honest heart will let you know through experience. Ask more questions. Make more statements. Ask more questions. And don't forget to always SIT on it.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Tb]

Hi.

Just an small comment from an old fool, don't separate and its all good practice, in one way or another.

Thank you for your practice.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

#Sat2day

[Juki]

Thank you, Risho. Beautifully stated. Nothing I can add here to address the question of whether my life is misery (which is a miscasting of suffering).

Chankin, no disrespect intended, but every so often, someone shows up with a plan to recast the practice into some "new and improved" format. That's not what we do. Are you here to practice Zen or just to put forth intellectual concepts that run counter to our traditions. Because it sounds like you're preaching.

Bodhidharma said: "self nature is subtle and mysterious. On the realm of the inexplicable Dharma, not preaching a single word is called the Precept of Not Lying."

Gassho,
Juki

sattoday