The pain of practice

[Eishuu]

I really resonate with your post Libby. I struggle with this too - the fear of death or the fear that 'I' do not exist in the way I think I do. You've really put it into words well. I find it easier to cope with if I do more metta practise somehow or if my heart feels more open and less focused on 'me'. I've even stopped meditating for long periods because of it. It's eased a lot now. I don't have the wealth of experience of these guys but I would say from dealing with my own fear or terror at times that I've found it helpful to be gentle and kind with myself - not to try and push it, but to back off every now and then to digest things.

Also, realising a bit more that 'I' am just a wave and the ocean is always there helps.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

[Jundo]

I really resonate with your post Libby. I struggle with this too - the fear of death or the fear that 'I' do not exist in the way I think I do. You've really put it into words well. I find it easier to cope with if I do more metta practise somehow or if my heart feels more open and less focused on 'me'. I've even stopped meditating for long periods because of it. It's eased a lot now. I don't have the wealth of experience of these guys but I would say from dealing with my own fear or terror at times that I've found it helpful to be gentle and kind with myself - not to try and push it, but to back off every now and then to digest things.

Also, realising a bit more that 'I' am just a wave and the ocean is always there helps.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today

Yes, if such sensations are too much for you, then back off. Some folks are just more sensitive and fragile in the face of such fears. I would hesitate to guide someone at a distance in such case.

I would advise you to find a teacher you can sit with live, and not at a distance, if you wish to keep sitting and the sensations continue.

If it is just a passing thing, and you find that you can continue sitting without being overwhelmed, that is one thing. But if the fear of impermanence, or a negative dread of emptiness or losing oneself persists or is too strong, you should stop Zazen until you can work with someone in person.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Yes, if such sensations are too much for you, then back off.

Thank you Jundo ... I too feel this is an important point. Balance is key and if we find practice is too much, stop and get the support that is needed - practice is also seeing/knowing when we need a helping hand. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Kaishin]

I hear you, Libby. That can be tough. We feel it more when we practice because we are allowing all those delusions to fall away. As to why we continue to practice despite this? I have found that once you are on this path, you can't ever really leave. It sticks to your bones! But I think that's a good thing.

Sometimes when these delusions fall away, I tend to get a bit extremist, thinking about just abandoning all my "pointless" hobbies and enjoyments and just focusing 100% on practice. But, that's not really appropriate or healthy for a householder, I don't think. Like all things in practice, balance is good. We can enjoy all these "cosmically pointless" activities (that can bring joy to us and those around us), while still understanding their place in ultimate reality. Not sure if that makes sense.

Ultimately, we touch more beings than we can imagine, so just practice good and do as little harm as you can. Let your legacy be a positive one. What else can be done?

-satToday

p.s. I've found volunteering to help others to be great medicine. Ultimately, nothing matters. Practically, everything matters. And remember that it doesn't matter how much you sit, or read about Buddhism, or know about Buddhism. As the Buddha said, "your actions are your only true possessions."

[Shinzan]

Thanks, Libby, for starting this lovely thread. Just ducky. Which reminds me of our theme song,.....

"Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream"

Sung softly, nestled on those Atlantic swells, our little flotilla of ducks all together.
_/st\_ Shinzan

[Jishin]

The pain of practice

Hi Libby,

You are already dead. You have realized that death is unavoidable and this is wonderful. Now you can live in peace.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

This is a good place to mention "Makyo" ...

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. We are not used to the stillness and quiet of Zazen, and it lets certain memories, emotions, fears and like psychological states rise to the surface ... or allows some things (spots in our eyes that are always there even though not usually noticed, background sounds) to be noticed that are usually blocked out by all the noise and busyness in our heads, senses and around us.

The usual guidance on such events ... Observe, allow, let it go. If such events do not repeat so often, I would not worry.

I link to my usual long posting on so-called "Makyo" mind tricks during Zazen ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12641-Faces-in-the-carpet&p=134634&viewfull=1#post134634

There is a scholar researching some negative effects of meditation called the "Dark Night" project. However, it is my general belief that most truly extreme and powerful negative psychological and emotional states would arise from highly concentrated, intense, very long or focused forms of meditation seeking to give rise to unusual and radically altered mind states. The Shikantaza we sit is rather relaxed, "ordinary mind", low-intensity in style, so I believe that triggering truly extreme negative mental states is unlikely in the way we sit. However, one still needs to be careful for some particularly fragile or sensitive individuals.

http://magazine.good.is/articles/when-meditation-is-bad-for-you

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Byokan]

Thanks, Libby, for starting this lovely thread. Just ducky. Which reminds me of our theme song,.....

"Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream"

Sung softly, nestled on those Atlantic swells, our little flotilla of ducks all together.
_/st\_ Shinzan

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Gukan]

This has been such a wonderful read, thank you all again. Every one of your responses has given me a new perspective or angle from which to approach my experience and some responses in particular have really helped me get some clarity amid the emotional fog

One thing I have already realised is that the pain I described may actually be a sort of overwhelm in the face of very intense love. I am a single mum and the fear of leaving my kids prematurely has always been there in the background. Practise brings this to the fore, I think. But actually your kind and thoughtful comments have enabled me to feel this intense emotion rather differently today. I noticed a few times that rather than feel panic I felt a surge of gratitude and joy that I have such precious beings in my life, and rather than fear my time running out with them (time in which to teach them every single thing I need to teach them, time in which to express every single aspect of my love for them etc etc etc) I felt the wonderful potential of every moment we do have together. This was quite a huge perspective shift. Still somewhat overwhelming, but much less negative and fear-filled. We shall see how that unfolds.

I don't know where I would start responding to each of your comments in turn but suffice it to say these were really supportive and genuinely useful responses. They have also reminded me of the value of metta practice, which for some reason has dropped out of my daily routine recently. Time to bring that back, I think.

There is something very special in a sangha whose members take such care to support each other's practice and I am so happy I stumbled across this little flotilla of ducks on the vast ocean swell

Deep bows to you all and thank you for this fabulous discussion,
Gassho,
Libby

sat today

[Yugen]

The pain of practice

Libby,
As you are discovering, a child's love is the most wonderful thing in the world. Let it soak into you like a spring rain. I aspire to a heart as playful and spontaneous as a child's.

Thank you
Deep bows
Yugen


sat2day

[Jundo]

One thing I have already realised is that the pain I described may actually be a sort of overwhelm in the face of very intense love. I am a single mum and the fear of leaving my kids prematurely has always been there in the background. Practise brings this to the fore, I think. But actually your kind and thoughtful comments have enabled me to feel this intense emotion rather differently today. I noticed a few times that rather than feel panic I felt a surge of gratitude and joy that I have such precious beings in my life, and rather than fear my time running out with them (time in which to teach them every single thing I need to teach them, time in which to express every single aspect of my love for them etc etc etc) I felt the wonderful potential of every moment we do have together. This was quite a huge perspective shift. Still somewhat overwhelming, but much less negative and fear-filled. We shall see how that unfolds.

One of the greatest gifts this Practice has allowed me is to be with my kids, savor the moment (even the hard ones), then be willing to let it go.

We truly learn that each moment and experience is just its own shining jewel, but one that holds all time within it. There truly is nothing lacking, nothing more needed, than that one tick of the clock.

But then kids grow older, and there is a mix of joy and sadness in that fact. Our way allows the changes to change, ends to end and new beginnings to begin ... and even though part of me is sad, there is also equanimity and joy at once.

Further, even as the clock keeps ticking ... we do fill ourselves with something beyond all change though changing, without beginning and end and time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jinyo]

Hello Libby,

I have been thinking of you and this thread the past couple of days. It is a very important thread and I am grateful to everyone who has responded.

I also experienced the fear you experience when my children were small and now it revisits with my grandchildren who I love dearly. The intense love you speak of is natural - though we must take care not to let it impact negatively because of the anxiety that sometimes accompanies the intensity.

Three Christmases ago my daughter became seriously ill with a rare immune condition - it can be life threatening. My grandchildren were 3 and 6 years of age. I can not describe the feeling of sheer terror at the thought of 'separation' from a loved daughter and my fears for my grandchildren. Three years on my daughter
is an inspiration in her way of coping with a difficult illness and my grandchildren are developing into caring little people with a degree of empathy for others well
beyond their age.

I don't believe I could have got through the past three years with any degree of equanimity without the healing nature of zazen. Zazen hasn't eradicated any of the emotions/feelings etc but has enabled me to be with that whole spectrum of emotions without falling into an abyss.

I think what I am trying to say is that we will probably be defeated/discouraged if we expect zazen to eradicate emotions. Maybe it is possible for some to reach
a point of 'no death - no fear' (Thich Nhat Hahn's words) but for myself I accept I have a long way to go and try to be at peace with the fact that I may never reach such a point of equanimity.

Each stage of life presents a new challenge regarding the above so I try not to view the challenge as a huge difficulty or imperfection - something to be fixed and overcome - but all part of this joyous, mixed up path of happiness, sadness, fear and freedom from fear that we're walking together.

Metta to all,

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Gukan]

Thank you Yugen, Jundo and Willow. Yes, the intensity of love and the fears and sadnesses that go along with it do indeed provide ever-evolving challenges.

Zazen hasn't eradicated any of the emotions/feelings etc but has enabled me to be with that whole spectrum of emotions without falling into an abyss.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here, Willow. After many years of living in my head I am learning to experience and be with a whole range of emotions I tried to think my way out of in the past, for fear of being swamped by them. I am glad to hear your own experience is that zazen has supported you during what must have been a terribly difficult time.

And Lisa:" It reminds me of the first time I put on flippers and went swimming out into the ocean a little further from shore. Everything was groovy, beautiful, free and fun, but then I looked down and suddenly realized the water was so deep that I couldn’t see the bottom. On top the water was sparkly with sunshine and blue as it had always been, but suddenly I was aware of this deep, cold, grey abyss beneath me! There was a moment of panic and a very real sense of falling, before I realized that the water was still holding me up. Nothing had changed in those moments except my perception." Thank you for these words.

You know, I was hesitating about starting this thread but it turned out to be a wonderful decision

Thank you all again.

Libby

[Nindo]

Thank you for this thread. I too know this "early-forties" panic that comes with increased awareness that our time is limited. Seems the best way to deal with it is to get to work and use time wisely, as you found with your children. (Of course, that is often easier said than done!) For me it was also a strong sign that I have to chose more carefully what I want to be involved in as a volunteer and which personal project to take up.

May your life go well.
Gassho
Nindo
sattoday

[orangedice]

It reminds me of the first time I put on flippers and went swimming out into the ocean a little further from shore. Everything was groovy, beautiful, free and fun, but then I looked down and suddenly realized the water was so deep that I couldn’t see the bottom. On top the water was sparkly with sunshine and blue as it had always been, but suddenly I was aware of this deep, cold, grey abyss beneath me! There was a moment of panic and a very real sense of falling, before I realized that the water was still holding me up. Nothing had changed in those moments except my perception.

This really resonated with me. Thank you, Lisa! (And to everybody else's wonderful response.) While reading Libby's original post, all I could do was nod and think to myself, "me too, me too!" For awhile, before I connected with Buddhism, I jokingly called myself "an atheist who really wants there to be an afterlife"--the thought of dying, of not existing, terrified me. Hell (ba-dum-tss), it STILL terrifies me. But I've learned through zazen and mindfulness that I can examine that fear... and yes, I'm still afraid, but I feel that by planting the seeds/the habit of examining that fear, that the fear will eventually (maybe in a decade? 50 years? right before my death?) disappear to the point where I can REALLY enjoy my life. I'm trying to get in that habit now.

Gassho,
June
#SatToday
#SorryIHaven'tBeenAround