Sitting with, without and beyond TIMERS?

[Jika]

Hi all,
I think there is a reason why we use all sorts of timers and bells and keep a schedule on our sitting.
But then, I sometimes sit in a beautiful place in a park, or on a crowded train, and I don't set a timer for that. Moments of timeless sitting can happen in both, the difference is that a timer is like a commitment to sit for a certain time and drop all thoughts of getting back to other tasks before the bell.
Without a timer of course, something makes me sooner or later decide to stop.

What are your experiences and thoughts on that?
Is sitting without a timer counterproductive to our practice?
I personally find it refreshing (in addition to more formal sits). My only concern is that it will keep my thoughts checking if there is some external timing or not. (Absolutely relatively spoken; when I'm getting cold on a park bench, because the sun has moved, that's external timing too)

Gassho,
Danny
#timedtoday

[Tb]

Hi.

Sometime, it is good to sit with a timer.
Sometime, it is good to sit without a timer.
Sometime it is good just to sit.

That being said, i, myself, get an ich in my legs when i have sat approximately 23 minutes, which is kinda funny...
I also almost never use a timer when i sit by myself, only when i sit with others in different constellations.
I have also had this discussion, and noticed the concern when people are timekeepers, about their concern about the timer and the practice, so this is going to be an excellent discussion, thank you for that.

Lastly, in my humble view, you will find that it is all good practice, all in each place at the same time, you just need to find that out...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

#Sat2day

[Ugrok]

Hi !

For me, timers are linked with a sense of responsability. It's a way to engage in the practice : "during the 30 next minutes, whatever happens, i'll just sit". It allows to be responsible of your practice : if you feel that you wasted your time thinking about that girl you saw in the street earlier, during those 30 minutes, well, you still have to get up in the end, and next time you'll try not to waste your time and just practice.

Sitting without timers is fine too, i do it also in trains etc. But it's not the same thing for me. When i do it on the train for example, it is because i'm seeking relief, or i want/need to relax - which is fine, i guess, but makes it kind of a "tool" to gain relief for ME. But formal, timed practice, takes place wether i want to relax or seek relief or not : it's not linked to my conditioned situation. And since zazen is about being free from conditions, i would say it is "better", or at least more effective in that regard.

Gassho,

Ugrok

Sat Today

[Jishin]

Hi,

Relative time cannot be ignored because we live in a relative world. This being so, the clock is always ticking. Time can be defined as the distance that it takes to arrive from point A to point B in the relative world. We are not in the same place before and after sitting. We have moved in relation to something. So we cannot sit without a timer, man made or not.

Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Anshu Bryson]

'Sitting' in trains? When I am in a train, I am usually scanning for threats and taking up a defensive posture near an exit...

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Hotetsu]

Lol oh my Anshu. What trains have you been riding? 😜

Gassho

#SatToday

Sent from my LGMS345 using Tapatalk

[Getchi]

Great question and some really interesting answers!

Always be prepared Anshu My old teacher used to say "Never Be Last" but its a pretty intensive lifestyle!

Trying to avoid a reliance on anythign in particular is probably a great idea Danny, and just like Fugen said its good to be able to sit under all circumstance (all terrain training).

Jishin thats a very interesting idea, existence is its own timer. A fact we perhaps forget so easily.

For myself, I used to keep a timer. Now its only for sitting in a group. When im on my own ill light a stick of incense and just sit. Until it feels natural to stop. Most times its somewhere over 30-40 minutes (I know because the stick is burned out) and sometimes when I stop there's just a little left to enjoy. I guess I try to keep sitting until I feel that "deathless" state (im unsure the word around here).

No matter what happens, its always worth it


GAssho
Geoff.
SatToday.

[Mp]

Sometime, it is good to sit with a timer.
Sometime, it is good to sit without a timer.
Sometime it is good just to sit.

Hello Danny,

Great questions ... for the most part if I am sitting at home, there is a clock somewhere. But if I am out in the world, the experiences are my timer non-timer - but if I am sitting with a group, a timer is good to manage time for all who are sitting. =)

When it comes to sitting there is a time for that, but there is also a time to get up off the cushion and engage the world with the heart and mind of sitting.

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday without a timer

[Nindo]

Let me respond with one of my old haiku


I realized
my meditation was over
when the bell didn't ring


Gassho
Nindo
sattoday without a timer looking at a morning cloud

[Ian]

Hello Anshu,

Ah yes, the mind of a security professional at work! As you know from our private messages I am a retired Special Agent with the Diplomatic Security Service. Whenever I'm on an outing with my family I still assess the security environment whenever we're out in public. Primary/secondary escape routes, defensive firing positions, hold rooms, etc. I've become better at letting go of such a mind frame, but I still find myself at the grocery store periodically turning around while pushing the cart through the aisles or grabbing a bunch of bananas and doing a quick scan for potential threats. Well, that's one way of living in the moment!

Take care!
Gassho,
Ian
Sat today

-sat today-[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Anshu Bryson;158977]'Sitting' in trains? When I am in a train, I am usually scanning for threats and taking up a defensive posture near an exit...

Gassho,
Anshu

[Kyonin]

I realized
my meditation was over
when the bell didn't ring

Thank you

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi Danny.

I am used to sit for really long times, so my timer is essential. Without it I'd spend a few hours sitting without noticing.

I sit before dawn when everything is quiet, but only for 40 minutes. In weekends I sit for 2 hours sometimes.

Once I sat the whole waiting time while doing a government thing and I had to wait 4 hours sitting on a chair. Oh, and when I travel to see my parents I sit on the bus for 6 hours.

But what is time? Here is the Doctor to remind us

https://youtu.be/vY_Ry8J_jdw

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Getchi]

Gassho Kyonin, my wife and I love the Doctor (that one especially!)


Geoff,
SatToday

[Jika]

Thank you all for such a variety of answers.

I thought I was doing something against the rules - sigh! - will continue sitting and non-think about time, timers and... stuff.

PS small kids are great timers too, I found out during the last few days: the moment the sound goes from laughing or bickering into "OMG I bumped my head and my brother's foot is in my mouth", you know, seated zazen is over.

Deep bows to all parents, 24/7 Shikantaza
Danny
#yawn

[Joyo]

When I sit with the timer, I just sit with the timer. When I sit without the timer (usually in a more informal way during the day) I just sit without a timer. I do agree that a timer does require one to be accountable. I once had a chance to talk to a wonderful, young author of a very popular book. He said he tried Buddhism but he didn't like being told he had to sit for a certain amount of time. I disagree with that. I've found it's good for the ego. But, with that being said, ego can turn timer/no-timer into an issue, so middle way thinking is best.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today