Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40354

    #16
    Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

    Dear Stephanie,

    Originally posted by Stephanie
    If reality is only a construction of the mind, is the difference between saying that things are fundamentally sad or fundamentally joyful merely an aesthetic, rather than an ontological, matter?
    There are many perspectives, all true yet each different; some are conflicting views but without the least conflict ... In our Buddhist Practice, we learn to hold each and all simultaneously. I suggest that you need to free your mind from its narrow tracks of thinking:

    By one perspective, our world contains countless painful, ugly things: war, child abuse, poverty, the list goes on. Buddhist Practice is certainly not about being "happy" with such ugliness, nor is it about calling such tragedy anything but what it is. We can never be at peace with such things, nor should we be. Our Buddhist Practice never teaches us to accept or "be at peace with" such things!

    Yet, by another perspective, in our Practice we come to "be at peace with" precisely such things and this complex world, and to honor its complexity. We learn to respect, accept and fully embrace impossible situations, difficult or cruel people, calamity and sadness as "just what they are", and not "how we would want them to be". In a universe that presents a garden of flowers and weeds, we respect that both appear whether we like them or not. Stinking dog crap in the road is just stinking dog crap in the road. Weeds are fully weeds and crap precisely crap!! I bow to that!

    But, by still another perspective, even as we allow for the world to be a complex place, even as we accept the tragedy ... simultaneously, hand-in-hand without the least break, we can set about pulling weeds. The dog crap in the road is "just what it is" and I accept it, yet I step around or clean it up! I call this attitude "acceptance without acceptance".

    (Dog grap, by the way, is an excellent fertilizer for flowers! We learn also to embrace the good and happy events of this world, and not call a lovely rose as just a cluster of thorns. I suggest, Steph, you need to learn this perspective too ... if you wish to embrace the weeds, embrace the flowers too.)

    And by yet one more perspective, just as true, we can experience a world beyond all human concept of flowers or weeds, war, peace, without children to be abused or monsters to do the abusing, rich and poor, dogs and dog crap. No separate you, me, cars and tables, sun or stars. It is the blank white page before the play is written, the ways of nature before a human mind even calls it "garden". By this perspective, there is a Peace beyond peace or war, a Stillness in the movement, Life and Growth beyond weeds or flowers. All meaning is there, all belonging.

    Do you see conflict and incongruity among these various views? Of course there is! Of course there is not the least!

    This is the bus trip we are on ... the garden tour ... perhaps going no where, perhaps some where ... perhaps someone is at the wheel, perhaps not. But all the comedy and tragedy, the weeds and flowers, are seen as but passing scenery out the window.

    Free your mind from its narrow ways of thinking!

    ... I personally have gotten tired of the candy-sweet Buddhism that dominates popular American Buddhist discourse, as it strikes me as false and merely representative of the subjective reality of the upper middle class milieu it largely represents.
    That may be the attitude of some of the students who come to Buddhism, or any other self-help book in the book store, seeking "happiness". It is certainly not the attitude of most of the Buddhist teachers I know (at least the good ones).

    As well, Steph, folks seeking "happiness happiness happiness" everywhere are making the same error you are making, I think, in seeking sadness sadness sadness everywhere. Reality is much more complex than that.

    Now, Peace in the presence of peace or war ... that is what Buddhism teaches and is very different from "happiness" I think.

    Perhaps you want us to confirm for you, Steph, that life is just weeds and dog crap. Sorry, it is much more that that!!


    I guess the question is, when you finally grow up and see what this world is really like, can you say it's so wonderful if you're an honest person and aren't sheltered? I
    It is both "wonderful" and "horrible" ... and Wonderful too beyond all human idea of "wonderful" or "horrible". It is a Heaven beyond heaven and hell, not merely a nullity or oblivion!

    You say, "I want so much for there to be something or someone else to lean on, and yet I cannot believe that there is ... My personal quest is for truth and for meaning.."

    Trust in the bus that brought you this far, and into this world kicking and screaming. Live your life. You are here, you have a seat, you have a window. Weeds and flowers pass by ... enjoy the scenery. Can you not appreciate the existential truth and meaning of the ride????

    Gassho, Jundo

    PS-

    Skye wrote "Holding all things in equanimity, good and bad, is a liberating experience. Have you not felt it??"


    Yes, but it doesn't last. And even in that equanimity, when it is there, there is also sadness.
    It does not last? It lasts even when you do not feel it so. Practice more with that!

    Yes, even in the equanimity there is sadness. But in the equanimity there is no sadness too, not the slightest trace.

    As well, know that in the sadness, there is equanimity.

    Do not forget this!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • chicanobudista
      Member
      • Mar 2008
      • 864

      #17
      Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

      Originally posted by Jundo
      Trust in the bus that brought you this far, and into this world kicking and screaming. Live your life. You are here, you have a seat, you have a window. Weeds and flowers pass by ... enjoy the scenery. Can you not appreciate the existential truth and meaning of the ride????
      Well said.

      __/__
      Namaste
      paz,
      Erik


      Flor de Nopal Sangha

      Comment

      • Yugen

        #18
        Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

        Harry,
        I am now reading the fascicle "Ikka No Myoju" to which you have referred. Brilliant! Thank you!

        Regards,
        Alex

        Comment

        • Fuken
          Member
          • Sep 2006
          • 435

          #19
          Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

          The ancient master said
          Do not to bring scriptures to the craper,
          But I still enjoy reading
          on my porcelain throne.
          Yours in practice,
          Jordan ("Fu Ken" translates to "Wind Sword", Dharma name givin to me by Jundo, I am so glad he did not name me Wind bag.)

          Comment

          • Stephanie

            #20
            Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

            As is typical of my fucked up brain, I'm feeling a lot better after having one of the worst moments I've had as long as I can remember just a few hours ago. I'm not one for panic attacks, but what I experienced came pretty close. Lost all sense of self and reference points but not in a calm enlightened spiritual way, rather it was the way where you're praying just for it to end and hoping you haven't lost it for good this time. Your mind is going to smithereens while your pulse rate climbs and your stomach churns and you can't do anything about it. Full-bore crazy-ass meltdown (which I'm sure looked like nothing to the other people around me in the library at the time). But after that white-knuckle ride, I feel a little bit the sense of that "something" I've been feeling doesn't exist. Don't know how to put it other than there is a light, somewhere, and it comes from somewhere, but who knows. Hopefully tomorrow I won't be back down in the black hole...

            One thing struck me during that episode though. I was lucid enough to be able to have some degree of mindfulness so that I was able to watch the experience without fully identifying with it but I found that no matter what sort of desperate thought I threw at it, nothing had any effect on the horror of it, until I came to a thought of compassion. I thought, "Going through this will help me better understand and have so much more compassion for my clients and other people who've gone through similar episodes, whether they're psychotic breaks or panic attacks or whatever else." That was all the meaning I needed to start calming down. I've thought about it since and it always seems to come back to compassion. I don't care how fucked up I am, that's what always gets through, even when nothing else does. So yes.

            Have we had enough of the Magical Mystery Tour of Stephanie's screwed up mind yet? :lol:

            Comment

            • will
              Member
              • Jun 2007
              • 2331

              #21
              Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

              And you notice the thought of compassion and you pay attention to what's infront of your face and you feel your back and your hands. Such an intimate thing. Too intimate FOR??????????????


              ?
              [size=85:z6oilzbt]
              To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
              To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
              To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
              To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
              [/size:z6oilzbt]

              Comment

              • Longdog
                Member
                • Nov 2007
                • 448

                #22
                Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                Hi Steph

                You do seem to relish in being 'messed up' and telling us how you aren't an easy read/talk. It really doesn't seem that cool.

                You seem to need to consistently tell us how bad you are and how no one can help. Though lots have offered advice, both spiritual and psychological.

                May be you should spend sometime asking yourself why you revel in it?

                What you are getting from it?

                What have you invested in being in this state?

                In gassho, Kev
                [url:x8wstd0h]http://moder-dye.blogspot.com/[/url:x8wstd0h]

                Comment

                • Stephanie

                  #23
                  Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                  I'm not craving attention, I'm craving understanding. And I've had very little of it here. Perhaps I've come to the wrong place or the wrong community, or perhaps there is no such place for me. I put my weirdest, darkest stuff out there because I have no outlet for it anywhere else. No one accepts this stuff. I joke about it because you all obviously don't either but yet I'm desperate enough for an outlet that I'll put it out here anyway, knowing he sort of response I'll get: admonishments about how to fix myself, chidings about my spiritual backwardness. At least you all generally show a benign tolerance of me, as I provide an object for you to correct and set straight even though that's not what I'm looking for. I spend the majority of my time in this life hiding what my subjective experience is like from most others in my life. And it makes me so tired. I also am searching for someone who understands because this quest for meaning--as futile and irrelevant as it seems to be to the lot of you--really does consume me. You may think me insincere, but I assure you I am not.

                  Comment

                  • will
                    Member
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 2331

                    #24
                    Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                    See you in the sitting room.

                    G,W
                    [size=85:z6oilzbt]
                    To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
                    To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
                    To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
                    To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
                    [/size:z6oilzbt]

                    Comment

                    • Longdog
                      Member
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 448

                      #25
                      Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                      Hi Steph

                      I don't think it's necessarily that people don't understand what you are saying about your thoughts and feelings or what they are, but that they don't understand that you can't see that they are thoughts and feeling you need to deal with in whatever way works i.e. therapy, medication, sitting or a combination of all.

                      I've had very bad times in the past, had a couple of breakdowns, self harmed, been very ill and down with my ME/CFS but the resolutions came from me taking control and seeing a doctor/therapist/ sitting etc.

                      In fact my first resolve to see a therapist came after a week long retreat, years ago, which brough up a lot of things I needed to deal with.

                      I just feel that you need to act rather than be stuck in that thought cycle. Your continuing posts about your fears just feed that thought process.

                      In gassho, Kev
                      [url:x8wstd0h]http://moder-dye.blogspot.com/[/url:x8wstd0h]

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 40354

                        #26
                        Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                        Originally posted by Stephanie
                        As is typical of my fucked up brain, I'm feeling a lot better after having one of the worst moments I've had as long as I can remember just a few hours ago. I'm not one for panic attacks, but what I experienced came pretty close. Lost all sense of self and reference points but not in a calm enlightened spiritual way, rather it was the way where you're praying just for it to end and hoping you haven't lost it for good this time. Your mind is going to smithereens while your pulse rate climbs and your stomach churns and you can't do anything about it. Full-bore crazy-ass meltdown
                        Steph,

                        If you are having serious episodes like this, I want you to talk to a counseling professional. Please don't wait. I am sure that they can find some treatment that will leave you better, not worse. Please do that quickly, even today, and don't hesitate. Nothing to lose!

                        Gassho, Jundo
                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                        Comment

                        • will
                          Member
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 2331

                          #27
                          Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                          All things come and go. One moment your caught by some unbearable nervous state and then the next day or moment your not. Comes and goes. Just don't make it such a big deal. The more importance you attach to any state or experience the more it becomes your entire experience.

                          You'll keep talking about it over and over. Your thoughts and what you believe is not special Stephanie. It's the same old same old. Been there done that. Advice work with your experience. What does that mean? It means don't believe or be convinced by anything. A lot will come up in practice and that's about it. I'll keep repeating it until you get it through your skull, pay attention. You want me to repeat it? Pay attention.

                          One more time for the road. Pay attention. Sit. Pay attention. Release your tension. Sit. Pay attention. Feel your back, hands, legs body, see, hear, smell etc.Pay attention. Let things come and go. Pay attention. Got it?

                          There's no good or bad practice. You might not be able to smell anything sometimes, but that's just your practice at that moment. Then the next moment...

                          One thing you might want to ask yourself is what is happening at this moment and am I paying attention.

                          10:50 pm Time to go sit with my own shit that you don't hear me rambling on and on about in someone's ear.

                          But guys this is how I feel. No one understands me.It's not so much the tension or thinking too much it this thirst for understanding. It seems like it's something that I've always had. Everywhere I go I can't find people who can relate to me or this thirst for meaning. It's a hunger. I can't shake it. I guess I'll go somewhere else or do my practice by myself.

                          G,W
                          [size=85:z6oilzbt]
                          To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
                          To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
                          To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
                          To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
                          [/size:z6oilzbt]

                          Comment

                          • Skye
                            Member
                            • Feb 2008
                            • 234

                            #28
                            Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                            Stephanie,

                            I agree it looks like we're all dogpiling on you. Maybe it's not the right thing to do, maybe it's mean, but it's coming from a place of kindness and understanding. As a matter of fact, I'm in a cycle of depression right now. Over the years I've learned when it comes and goes and that perspective has given me power over it. The worst part was when I couldn't recognize it for being a construction and taking it for reality. Now I notice when its trying to drag me down into having a certain perception, and the Dharma has helped even more in that direction - like the happy times, suffering comes when one clings to it, good or bad. From what I've read, many people in the Sangha have struggled with this as well. Please understand that we do understand, and I think professional help may be an excellent course of action.

                            Skye
                            Even on one blade of grass / the cool breeze / lingers - Issa

                            Comment

                            • Stephanie

                              #29
                              Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                              You all are insulted that I don't simply take your advice. But have you asked yourselves why I would take your advice? A handful of people here have made the attempt to empathize or better understand my experience, but for the most part you just assume you know what's going on and tell me what to do without making any attempt to connect with me.

                              What I came here for was to see if anyone could relate to my experience. The response to that is an overwhelming, clear "No." And perhaps it's not because no one here can relate to it, but certainly no one has communicated to me that they can, with perhaps the exception of Charles. The major difficulty with which I am struggling right now is the intermingling of my existential search and my current "low ebb." I am not ignorant of my possible psychopathology, but that's not what I came here to address. I come to a place like this looking to see if other practitioners and people who have taken similar spiritual paths as me have had the same hunger or the same struggle. If anyone like that spoke out, you would find me very receptive.

                              Anyway, I realize it's stupid to keep exposing yourself to an unsympathetic audience. And I realize it was perhaps my error in coming and persisting here even when I could sense I maybe wasn't a good fit here. I'm not sure if there is any reason for me to continue posting here, and if I move on, I want to assure you that even if I am not well right now, I am not in danger. I have learned to live with my mind and I don't mind it. Again, I reiterate that my search has been, and remains, one for meaning. I get the sense you lot are "over that," and I am not, so I'm not sure there is a meeting point for discussion here.

                              Comment

                              • Fuken
                                Member
                                • Sep 2006
                                • 435

                                #30
                                Re: Poems For Melancholy Buddhists

                                Had… I used to blog allot about similar stuff. I think people liked it. Or at least were interested in it.
                                I deleted allot of it because now it looks like allot of silliness, too me.
                                I had allot more readers/viewers then, despite the fact that research says that people do not like clowns. I said allot allot!

                                Take good care.
                                Jordan
                                Yours in practice,
                                Jordan ("Fu Ken" translates to "Wind Sword", Dharma name givin to me by Jundo, I am so glad he did not name me Wind bag.)

                                Comment

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