The Heart Sutra

[Luciana]

Hello, all,

I've recently been reading a book by Kazuaki Tanahashi and Joan Halifax, The Heart Sutra, which includes their intriguing new translation of the Heart Sutra. You can see the translation here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pQIYBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT322&lpg=PT322&dq=heart+sutra+tanahashi+halifax+translation&source=bl&ots=TYkZFr6C5f&sig=UUYCSmKql-I2pXJLi6SrL5BASxU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y0xxVZrFOo_boASZha7ABQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=heart%20sutra%20tanahashi%20halifax%20translation&f=false

The most striking thing is that what is usually translated as 'emptiness' is here translated as 'boundlessness'! This makes so much difference to me in understanding it. I hope that it is equally accurate. (I was glad to see that Jundo thinks that Tanahashi's translations of Dogen are reliable.) It seems really revolutionary. The whole translation is quite beautiful as well.

Any thoughts on this?

L.

_/\_

st

[Luciana]

I see that the link above doesn't take one to the exact page on Google Books. You have to scroll down to the first page of Chapter 1.

[Jundo]

I am still waiting for mine to arrive!

Yes, this "Emptiness" is not empty, or better said, it embodies all empty and full. I often try to express this as Fullness, Boundless, Wholeness ... and something as Dancing Dance ...

Buddha-Basics (Part XVII) — The Dance of Emptiness

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7723-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-XVII%29-%C2%97-The-Dance-of-Emptiness

The Red Pine version, with many explanations and annotations, is also very good and highly recommended.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Heart-Sutra-Red-Pine/dp/1593760825

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Anshu Bryson]

I am sitting this course with Kaz and Roshi Joan Halifax next month - http://www.shambhala.com/courses/the-heart-sutra.html - over my summer break. 'Lesson 4' is on Emptiness:

Shunyata or “zeroness” in Mahayana Buddhism means the lack of concrete boundaries among things and the lack of completely independent existence. All things are interconnected. In this lesson you will explore shunyata and contemplate the translation that Kaz and Roshi offer for this word: “boundlessness.”

I am good with "lack of completely independent existence"; I am still trying to get my head around "boundlessness" as a translation of shunyata...

A "lack of concrete boundaries between things" and "boundlessness" (I would read that word as: having no boundaries in a 'vastness' sense...) seem not to be the same thing to me...(???) maybe I'm misinterpreting; I am sure i'll find out when I get to 'lesson 4'...!

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Jishin]

Hi,

I liked Red Pine way way better. But that's just me.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Anshu Bryson]

Finally able to figure out my kindle dramas (wouldn't sync; I've had three books in a queue for a month...!) and have Red Pine's now. Will have a look on the flight this evening!

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

[Jundo]

I am good with "lack of completely independent existence"; I am still trying to get my head around "boundlessness" as a translation of shunyata...

A "lack of concrete boundaries between things" and "boundlessness" (I would read that word as: having no boundaries in a 'vastness' sense...) seem not to be the same thing to me...(???) maybe I'm misinterpreting; I am sure i'll find out when I get to 'lesson 4'...!

I offer that this "empty/boundlessness" is not unrelated to what was chewed on here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13503-Grass-Hut-13-Everything-s-Included&p=155043&viewfull=1#post155043

... although I again caution that this is as much experiential as words. It is like the words "making love" or "marshmallows" or "Mozart" and the actual wordless experience of the sweetness of each. **

Gassho, J

SatToday

** Not to mention making love while listening to Mozart and gobbling marshmallows!

[Jeremy]

I offer that this "empty/boundlessness" is not unrelated to what was chewed on here ...

Could it be that emptiness morphed into emptiness/boundlessness when Mahayana Buddhism got to China and bumped into Taoism?

Gassho
Jeremy
Will sit this evening

[Jundo]

Could it be that emptiness morphed into emptiness/boundlessness when Mahayana Buddhism got to China and bumped into Taoism?

Gassho
Jeremy
Will sit this evening

Hi Jeremy,

Oh, I believe that is the general consensus among historians, that Chan/Zen is Indian Buddhism meeting Chinese sensibilities/Taoism. (Actually, not just any Taoism, but a particular flavor called rendered in English as "Dark Learning"). On the other hand, Daoism is not Zen nor Buddhism.

This thread touches upon the topic some ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12221-The-Tao-and-Zen&p=126715&viewfull=1#post126715

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Risho]

I had this book in my hands, at a local bookstore, but I put it down. I will check it out from the library (I absolutely love the library. lol) and will likely buy it, but the reason I put it down is the new word for emptiness.

I think the common explanation goes (or how I've read and heard about it most often) is that Emptiness means things are empty of an independent self; empty can be confusing, because in English it makes one think of nothingness, a nihilistic approach that Buddhism is certainly not pointing to. Boundlessness is a good word, but I thought, do I really need another word for it? I don't know, maybe, or maybe not. I remember a while back commenting on emptiness thinking I had it. Hans mentioned something, and I replied, man I really thought I got it, but now I just don't know. His response was yeah, thats' the beginning. I'm paraphrasing, but the point is the "don't know".

And I like that. Of course we need words to communicate, but I think (well I know I do this) that when we have a word or a definition of something we pinpoint it down, like we know that. But emptiness is beyond all of that, which is probably why there are so many words trying to describe it. lol

I'm no expert on emptiness - I mean I"m just not an expert on any of this by any means; these are just musings. So I think it's good to read new translations. I like what Jundo says about having at least 3 separate translations on something because it gives a more complete picture of what the original work is trying to convey. I've read multiple translations on the Heart Sutra. I'm sure this is going to be good; Tanahashi really does good work, and I like the Upaya Zen Center (which is Joan Halifax Roshi's zendo - just in case someone didn't know that).

But I wonder if I need yet another translation on this. I don't know if that makes sense -- and I know it's probably now completely tangential to this. hahahah

I'm a bibliophile, and especially when it comes to Zen material, so I'm sure I'll read it.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

Here is another translation of "Emptiness" ...



MU!

Which means .... NO! ...

... although this "NO!" is no and yes ... and no no ... no yes ... yes no ... yes yes ... no no yes ... no yes no ... and just MU! ....

... round and round mu goes ...

Gassho, J

[julie]

I find it funny how we need words, semantics, context on one hand, and then on the other there is the wordless understanding that we try to hard to pin down with words and it always escapes, but is unchanged. I suppose it is for accuracy of verbal understanding that I wish I could read the original languages and get the nuance. But we'll have to take the cultural transitions and transformations as written. My busy mind likes to imagine those times. Time goes from present to past. Chatter chatter...just breathe, Julie!

Gassho
sat today

[Myosha]

Dear Julie,

A wise person said, "Words are the yoke/joke of philosophy."

Know yourself, forget yourself. Then hug a baby.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Jundo]

I suppose it is for accuracy of verbal understanding that I wish I could read the original languages and get the nuance. But we'll have to take the cultural transitions and transformations as written. My busy mind likes to imagine those times. Time goes from present to past. Chatter chatter...just breathe, Julie!

Gassho
sat today

Zen Words are often like pealing the onion to get to the core. One peals and peals, but in the end there is no there there.

Actually, Dogen and many other Zen folks of old (who spoke and wrote a lot of words on Zen) did not really have a problem with all words, because some words are "turning words" which can fully express the inexpressible. Zen is about getting "beyond the words and letters", and the categories, valuations, divisions they represent. But Master Dogen also felt that the Silence was preaching right through the words too, but we must be tuned to hear. The categories, valuations and divisions are no problem for the eye undivided.

More words on wordlessness here ...

Words and Buddhist Ideas alone are not barriers! There is a time for all words and categories to drop away. There is a time for the dropping away of words and categories right in and through words and categories.

Dogen ... the master wordsmith ... held well expressed language to be the very essence of Buddhist Truths. For Dogen, suchness was not a matter of rejecting or embracing silence or speaking (there are right moments for each) ... but of how what is said, the well turned and turning phrase. The right words and Buddhist ideas do not simply describe Truth, but dance Truth itself, are True Dancing. The moons illuminates all things ... words no less ... and words illuminate the moon.

Properly Illuminated words are not simply 'the finger pointing at the moon which cannot be described in words'. Enlightened words are the Very Moonlight.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10992-Words&p=102273&viewfull=1#post102273

Gassho, J

SatYpdau

[Ongen]

Thank you, I think it's a beautiful translation.

Gassho,


Ongen / Vincent
Sat Today