Science Catches Up to Buddhism: The Lying Self

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40719

    Science Catches Up to Buddhism: The Lying Self

    Hey Guys,

    It is good when science sometimes catches up with Buddhism.

    A very good interview with a neuroscientist on the illusion of "self" and other aspects ... many negative, but many positive and necessary to human life ... of our internal "self-deceptions".

    Julian Paul Keenan researches the neural correlates of the self and deception, with a natural interest in how the brain generates self-deception. He is a Professor of Biology and Molecular Biology, and a Professor of Psychology at Montclair State University. He is the founder of the journal Social Neuroscience.
    You & Your Brain - Julian Keenan
    TTBOOK is a nationally-syndicated, Peabody award-winning radio show about big ideas from the great minds of our time.


    My one real objection is a comment he makes toward the end, when he states that research has shown that people suffering depression may actually have a more "realistic" view of the world. I believe he is referring to this research:

    Depressive realism is the hypothesis developed by Lauren Alloy and Lyn Yvonne Abramson[1] that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than do non-depressed individuals. Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs,[2][3][4] depressive realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals' appraisals are positively biased.[5] This theory remains very controversial, as it brings into question the mechanism of change that cognitive behavioral therapy for depression purports to target.[6] While some of the evidence currently supports the plausibility of depressive realism, its effect may be restricted to a select few situations.[7]



    Probing the puzzling workings of 'depressive realism'
    New studies hint depressed people may not factor context into judgments as much as the nondepressed--putting a new twist on the 'real' part of depressive realism. ... By introducing new conditions into the experimental paradigm commonly used to study depressive realism, the researchers found that apparent depressive realism may actually come from depressed people not using all the available evidence to judge the facts, relative to nondepressed people.
    "This is a very well-conducted piece of research that undermines the evidence that the depressed may in some cases make sounder judgments than the nondepressed," says Brewin. But he notes that the data, while promising, will need further investigation and elaboration as psychologists revise their understanding of depression.

    New studies hint depressed people may not factor context into judgments as much as the nondepressed--putting a new twist on the 'real' part of depressive realism.

    It seems that, not only is the evidence for this very mixed, but that the definition of "more realistic" may have a very narrow meaning. This is "more realistic" in a very narrow sense.

    Buddhism might say that "depression" is not "realistic" because it is just an emotional interpretation imposed upon "what is", as well as one that tends to focus upon the negative aspects and "worst case scenarios" excessively. Same for "postive" viewpoints, except that we rather uncover thru this Practice as certain "Big P" Positive that sweeps in all small human value judgments. We have discussed this is other recent threads ...

    I've had a long history with mental illness, and as such have always found it difficult to maintain friends or a partner. Recently my depression has taken a turn for the worse, and as such I have been quite rude and bad tempered to some people. I know in the Zen tradition metta isn't really emphasized that much. But do many of


    Also, Dr. Keenan, at the end of the interview, seems to say that Buddhism is about "losing our sense of self", which shows that he needs to learn a bit more about Buddhism in all its aspects. I would describe Zen Practice, for example, as balancing and fully transcending our "small self", and seeing thru many of our "self deceptions", even as we continue to live with our sense of self (illusory or not) and many of those very necessary-for-life "deceptions" (dropping away many of the harmful or counterproductive deceptions too), all as one finds one's True Self!

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-03-2015, 01:55 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Myosha
    Member
    • Mar 2013
    • 2974

    #2
    Hello,

    Thank you for the link.


    Gassho
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

    Comment

    • Jishin
      Member
      • Oct 2012
      • 4821

      #3
      Hi,

      -"Depressive realism is the hypothesis developed by Lauren Alloy and Lyn Yvonne Abramson[1] that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than do non-depressed individuals. Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs,[2][3][4] depressive realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals' appraisals are positively biased.[5] This theory remains very controversial, as it brings into question the mechanism of change that cognitive behavioral therapy for depression purports to target.[6] While some of the evidence currently supports the plausibility of depressive realism, its effect may be restricted to a select few situations."

      This is a flawed hypothesis. The opposite can be argued with no additional information or scientific studies whatsoever.

      Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

      Comment

      • Mp

        #4
        Thank you Jundo ... will have a listen. =)

        Gassho
        Shingen

        #justsat

        Comment

        • Kyonin
          Dharma Transmitted Priest
          • Oct 2010
          • 6750

          #5
          Thank you Jundo.

          It's a great audio for all interested in evolutionary psychology. I need to read that book!

          Gassho,

          Kyonin
          #SatToday
          Hondō Kyōnin
          奔道 協忍

          Comment

          • Josh
            Member
            • May 2014
            • 13

            #6
            Neuroscience and Buddhism find themselves overlapping more and more lately, especially in regards to the illusion of the self. Our brains are programmed to play a lot of tricks on us to enable this false perception.

            Other books about this:
            'The Self Illusion' by Bruce Hood
            'Who's in Charge?' by Michael Gazzaniga

            Sat today

            Comment

            • Luciana
              Member
              • May 2015
              • 59

              #7
              Thank you, Jundo--Interesting! Glad to hear someone in the scientific mainstream talking about the illusory nature of the self! I really question some of Keenan's conclusions though, for example, that we might as well go along with the illusion. Really? This reminds me of the classic therapeutic question, 'Would you rather be happy or would you rather be right?' In any case, haven't we learned that illusion can only lead to suffering? Keenan warns (I think) that we might get depressed if we have a clearer view of reality.

              This leads to the question of whether depressed people perhaps do have a clearer view--the idea of 'depressive realism' that you mention. There's a famous study--I would like to link to it but can't seem to find it online. Perhaps someone else has more information. A group of people identified as 'depressed' and a group identified as 'non-depressed' were asked to deliver speeches to another group of people. The audience was asked to rate each speaker's speech, and each speaker was also asked to rate him/herself. The depressed speakers had much higher correlations between their self-ratings and the audience's rating of them. The non-depressed speakers' ratings had much lower correlations, with the non-depressed speakers tending to have higher opinions of their speeches than the audience did. The differences were statistically significant.

              Having a history of depression, this is interesting to me. I have always mistrusted cognitive therapy, where, for example, roughly speaking, you try to 'change' your thoughts from negative to positive ones. I tend to want to know what's 'real', not what might make me feel better. And then there are antidepressant meds. When they work, could it be because they're blocking out some kinds of information that are not based on illusion?

              The Wikipedia article on depressive realism says, "This theory remains very controversial, as it brings into question the mechanism of change that cognitive behavioral therapy for depression purports to target." There's a pretty big industry based on cognitive behavioral therapy that might push back hard against the theory.

              Buddhism is appealing because it seems to be about how things 'really' are and seems to make one feel better as well! What could go wrong?

              Of course, this leaves out all the Zen questions--Is anything real? Is anything 'right'? Is anything true? Is there any I to feel better? But we seem to be on this plane for now.


              _/\_

              Luciana

              st

              Comment

              • julie
                Member
                • May 2015
                • 14

                #8
                Ooh, this is interesting!. Thank you, Jundo.

                Perceiving reality as it is with our game playing, interprative minds seems rather like holding a handful of water. Grab tight and you can't hold it (small self/attachment). Cup lightly and some may still trickle away but some remains. And this my brain made up because it can't yet understand reality as it is. I may be mistaken.

                gassho
                sat today with the darkening skies

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40719

                  #9
                  Hi Luciana,

                  Originally posted by Luciana
                  Thank you, Jundo--Interesting! Glad to hear someone in the scientific mainstream talking about the illusory nature of the self! I really question some of Keenan's conclusions though, for example, that we might as well go along with the illusion. Really?
                  I believe that most Zen Teachers, now and in the past, would express something like, "Well, yes, life is something of a dream from one perspective, with many illusory aspects. However, it is YOUR dream, so dream it well!". It may all be a dream, but live gently, with balance, take care of what needs to be done ... fetch water and chop wood. The water and wood may be dreams, but we are thirsty and have a dream house to heat!

                  'Ol Dogen said that we live in a dream within a dream ... a dream so dreamy, one might thus say it is as real as real can be ... a Buddha dreaming a Buddhadream.

                  I must agree with the researchers that many "dreams" and "self-deceptions" of life are good and necessary: My feelings for my kid may a dream, but I love him and need to get him fed. Building a rocket to go to the moon may serve no purpose, but is it not lovely that we "self-deceived" ourselves sufficiently as to the worth in order to go?

                  Originally posted by Luciana
                  This reminds me of the classic therapeutic question, 'Would you rather be happy or would you rather be right?' In any case, haven't we learned that illusion can only lead to suffering? Keenan warns (I think) that we might get depressed if we have a clearer view of reality.

                  ...

                  Having a history of depression, this is interesting to me. I have always mistrusted cognitive therapy, where, for example, roughly speaking, you try to 'change' your thoughts from negative to positive ones. I tend to want to know what's 'real', not what might make me feel better.

                  ...

                  Buddhism is appealing because it seems to be about how things 'really' are and seems to make one feel better as well! What could go wrong?

                  Of course, this leaves out all the Zen questions--Is anything real? Is anything 'right'? Is anything true? Is there any I to feel better? But we seem to be on this plane for now.
                  I rather disagree with this in a few of ways. I do not believe the depressed folks or the positive folks are being more "right" about life. They are both imposing interpretations and value judgments. If you would like a baseline for what is not an imposed value judgment, I would suggest asking a stone, a mountain, a tree or star about whether something in life is good or bad or "successful". I bet that they would answer with silence. Anything beyond that is a human viewpoint.

                  And if you are going to assert that depressed folks are better analyzers of facts and predictors of the future, I would say that generally they will win some lose some. Yes, a positive person may be "overly optimistic", seeing with rose colored glasses, overlooking the situation on the ground. All the "positive thoughts" and "crossed fingers" won't get a tower to stand up if the architecture is wrong. On the other hand (and I have been there myself in the past when depressed), all the "sky is falling" thinking, the "giving up cause we are bound to fail" emotions, the "two scared and sad to get out of bed", the "seeing the glass as half empty" predictions may not truly reflect the situation either. The tower will stand, despite our hopelessness, if the architecture is right.

                  A Zen fellow might say that the glass is neither half full nor half empty. It is simply the glass, the water as it is. Further, let's keep working carrying water, and the whole is both Full and Empty from the start. I am reminded of this other wet Koan too ...

                  Sôzan asked Elder Toku, “'The true Dharma-body of Buddha is like the
                  empty sky. It manifests its form corresponding to things – just like the moon on
                  the water.' How do you explain the principle of this corresponding?” Toku said,
                  “It is like a donkey looking into a well.” Sôzan said, “You put it in a nice way, but
                  you were able to say only eighty percent.” Toku said, “How about you, Master?”
                  Sôzan said, “It is like a well looking at a donkey.”


                  A nice discussion of this Koan in the chapter from page 161 here ...


                  Some describe "Zenmind" as being like a mirror which reflects whatever comes in front of it without putting on filters. The moon of enlightenment fills each puddle and dew drop and vast ocean of this world. This means that enlightenment shines right at the heart of every thing of the world, each person, every event of life for those who can see.

                  I am no expert, but we had a recent discussion of "cognitive therapy" and some related therapies, and their connection or roots in Buddhism. It was very interesting. I would say that there is tremendous value in changing our thoughts, especially the excessive, self-destructive and other damaging kinds.

                  Hi, I have a question or two for all our mental health professionals at Treeleaf. :) I was listening to an episode of a new science podcast on the subject of "Dark Thoughts" (be warned, if others will want to listen and are sensitive, that some of descriptions during the episode are very very dark and violent).


                  In other words, even assuming life is a dream ... there are positive dreams and nightmares. I would advise dreaming dreams which emphasize peace over violence, satisfaction and moderation over greed and excess, wholeness and cooperation over conflict and tension, love over hate, etc. Find the light that shines through and as this world. One does not need to be a "cockeyed optimist" or a "wallowing, woo is me depressive" ... and one can keep one's eyes open and look honestly at the world, both the beautiful and ugly aspects. However, I would advice to do so with a content, loving and peaceful heart.

                  So, there is actually something unavoidably positive in Buddhist imagery. There is a light that shines right through you, and you through it.

                  Gassho, J

                  Sat well today like a donkey.

                  Last edited by Jundo; 06-04-2015, 11:18 PM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Luciana
                    Member
                    • May 2015
                    • 59

                    #10
                    Thanks, Jundo.

                    Will have to think about all of this, and will check out the Dark Thoughts on the forum.

                    Hee-haw, and gassho,

                    L.

                    st

                    Comment

                    • Ugrok
                      Member
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 323

                      #11
                      Hi !

                      Yup, it's interesting. But why don't these guys have philosophical training in their career ? All this stuff about free will etc. is hundreds of years old !

                      It's always funny when scientist talk about "illusion". Illusion compared to what ? It's as if there would be a "real" world that they could somehow access below the "illusion". But all the science we develop and the "truths" we establish still are contained in our perceptions and subjectivity. The concept of "illusion", if you think about it, is quite empty... There is no "realer" world out there ! You get what you get : perceptions, sense of self, thoughts etc. Saying it's an illusion only works if you believe there is another, stable, real world, which is impossible ; and it is only deceptive if you thought, in the first place, that you knew the absolute truth about this "real world". Which is quite arrogant.

                      I like the interview, i just find it disappointing that they systematically interpret our experience as a deceptive lie (oh the drama), when it's not more of a lie than anything else really.

                      Anyway, thanks for posting it !

                      Gassho

                      Ugrok,

                      Sat Today

                      Comment

                      • Jeremy

                        #12
                        I found the interview very interesting, but personally I'm very suspicious when neuroscientists make claims about big questions. That's just an opinion, of course


                        In the interview, Keenan says:
                        One of the things the self may be doing is leading you to believe you have free will when you have no free will... series of elegant experiments from the 80's by Libet

                        I apologise for writing like a simpleton, but this is the briefest way I can express this.

                        Four questions and three answers:

                        Q1. What does Keenan say we're deluded about?
                        A1. He says we think we have free will but we don't. Interestingly, this is not a conclusion Libet drew from his own experiments.

                        Q2. What does Buddhism say we're deluded about?
                        A1. Our whole view of our selves and reality.

                        Q3. What does Buddhism say about free will?
                        A3. My answer is that free-will emerges from an understanding of the theory of karma. If you understand karma, then you can act so that positive karmic seeds are planted, leading to positive karmic fruits. Karma is intention and intention implies free will. (Personally I'm not a fan of 'karma' as a theory of cause and effect, but I am a fan of free will. That's just an opinion, of course ).

                        Q4. Who's right, Keenan or Buddhism?

                        The reason I'm suspicious when neuroscientists say they've got answers to big questions is that I think they're looking in totally the wrong place.

                        Gassho,
                        Jeremy
                        Sat Today
                        Last edited by Guest; 06-07-2015, 03:54 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Ongen
                          Member
                          • Jan 2014
                          • 786

                          #13
                          Hi Jeremy, and everyone

                          Originally posted by Jeremy
                          Who's right, Keenan or Buddhism?
                          This article: http://www.iflscience.com/physics/me...antum-universe talks about that reality, from a scientific point of view, actually only starts to exist once it is observed.
                          On a flat piece of paper I would still vote for Buddhism being right to start with, since indeed the glass is neither half full nor half empty until one calls it so. It seems even tiny particles/waves feel the same way about that.

                          Gassho,


                          Ongen / Vincent
                          Sat Today
                          Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

                          Comment

                          • Jeremy

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ongen
                            Hi Jeremy, and everyone
                            This article: http://www.iflscience.com/physics/me...antum-universe talks about that reality, from a scientific point of view, actually only starts to exist once it is observed.
                            On a flat piece of paper I would still vote for Buddhism being right to start with, since indeed the glass is neither half full nor half empty until one calls it so. It seems even tiny particles/waves feel the same way about that.
                            Hi Vincent,
                            Yes, I too like what Buddhism says about free will and about our deluded little selves. For what it's worth, I think viewing these as socially constructed is very illuminating. Just another opinion.
                            Gassho,
                            Jeremy
                            SatToday
                            Last edited by Guest; 06-08-2015, 09:05 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Kyonin
                              Dharma Transmitted Priest
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 6750

                              #15
                              Hi guys,

                              I have sat with this for a few days since it's a topic I am very interested in, and I think Mr. Keenan is right on the spot on how our personality and ego are illusions created by us to make us understand and relate to our living experience.

                              Think about this: put in your mind the last time you were hungry. You felt it in your stomach, in your head or maybe you felt a little dizzy. That was your body, your biology, sending a clear message that you needed nourishment. That's reality. Something that can't be changed regardless of what our opinions or faith are.

                              Maybe half a second or a full second later you put in your mind a picture of your favorite food. It could've been pizza, sushi or tacos. It was food and no matter what your inclinations are, food is food and we need it to keep on living.

                              When hungry we feel the urge for nourishment and it's a little later when personality kicks in with a preference.

                              This also happens when we feel lonely, when we feel humiliated or angry. The primate part of us sends us messages and then we create a monologue about it that goes along with the personality we have been building.

                              Now of course this doesn't mean it's bad or anything. I just find it fascinating.

                              Understanding this might be great help when dealing with emotions like anger or sadness. Both emotions tell us there's something we need to take care of, but we could be able to see where reality becomes delusion. Seeing this could make it easier to let things go while sitting zazen.

                              Or I could be totally wrong, of course

                              Gassho,

                              Kyonin
                              Hondō Kyōnin
                              奔道 協忍

                              Comment

                              Working...