Kyonin, I think that you're right.
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Thanks Kyonin - I think you've put into words what seems right about Julian Keenan's message. I'm going slightly off at a tangent, but I think it's worth bringing up "Mindfulness" here...
Your descriptions of patterns of thoughts, emotions and impulses accords very much with what is taught on Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT) courses in the UK, as described in the book "Mindfulness: A practical guide to finding peace in a frantic world"
MBCT deliberately stays on the surface, so it doesn't look for causes, and doesn't go so far as to say that an illusory ego is the underlying cause of our mental and emotional patterns, but it does provide a theoretical framework (fairly lightweight) around the patterns of impulses/thoughts/feelings which you describe. For example, when we experience anger, it would say that there are bodily sensations, thoughts, feelings and impulses which can all feed off each other with feedback loops, so that what might start off as a small problem becomes a big problem, with our head spinning and spinning, dragging our mood down, and often this becomes a pattern in the way we respond to events. Mindfulness uses a range of meditations to provide practical ways of getting ourselves out of negative patterns of emotion/thought and getting into positive patterns. For example, as a way to better deal with anger, it suggests focusing in on the bodily sensations, recognising that our thoughts are not 'the truth' (Charlotte Joko Beck talks about much the same thing in "Everyday Zen"). The 'Befriending Meditation' at http://franticworld.com/free-meditat...m-mindfulness/ is a Metta meditation which will sound very familiar to people here. Overall, MBCT is very pragmatic and I like it a lot. The 'Frantic World' book and MBCT course are (in my opinion
) very, very good.
As to underlying causes, even if we agree that the illusory ego (sometimes called "deluded self", or "fictional ego") is behind our lived experience, there are lots of ways of looking at how the illusory ego is created. Keenan looks to neuropsychology; Buddhism says (amongst other things) that ignorance is the root; social psychologists would look at how social processes shape our sense of self/ego and I'm sure there are many other approaches. The way I look at it, it's not so much that one view is right and the others are wrong. It's that some ways of looking at the causes are more illuminating and revealing than others. Also, and perhaps more importantly, some ways of looking at it show us practical routes to break down and release us from our negative patterns, a way out of our suffering.
Gassho,
Jeremy
Will sit laterLast edited by Guest; 06-09-2015, 03:03 PM.Comment
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Hi Jeremy!
Yes, I think several schools of thought have it right about the self. Even some ancient Greek wise men had it right when they understood that the self is just an illusion. I have find it liberating because I know when a thought is starting to take control and it's something I created in my mind.
This very morning I had an experience of the like. I was sitting zazen and angst came to visit because of work related stuff. I felt it pressing my chest. I understood where it came from and why it was here. I tried to look at it as a thought created by me, but angst is not me by any means. I welcomed the feeling and let it drift away.
Not sure if that made sense. The thing is that when knowing we create thoughts rather than saying that we are thoughts, it's easier to let them go.
Gassho,
Kyonin
#SatTodayHondō Kyōnin
奔道 協忍Comment
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Hi Jeremy,
I believe Mindfulness is very effective as far as it goes, but it is half a horse. It leaves out many of the most powerful and challenging Teachings of Buddhism, watering things down to something more palatable and less ultimately Liberating.
So, for example, the point you raised of a MBCT Teaching on just letting the self "be" in the moment. That's wonderful, very helpful and pleasant in its way.
But if one tries to go further, and point out that the "small self" is something of an illusion as well, that there is Emptiness which is a Fullness which sweeps in and sweeps out "being and not being" and all other dichotomies ... well, people start looking perplexed, and wondering why they need that. The problem with MBCT and similar "Mindfulness" programs is really all the good stuff they leave out!
We were discussing this a bit on these other threads. Yes, these ways of knocking down the barriers of the mind are challenging, so folks just scratch their heads. It is a bit like folks like to go to "Yoga" classes to day a stretch a bit, forgetting all the tensions from their latest shopping spree at the Mall. They are really not too interested in the more radical Teachings of Indian Yoga.
Gassho, J
PS - I don't mean to imply that everything in Traditional Buddhism is great! One finds a lot of superstition, Old Wives Tales, quackery and silliness too that can be done without. However, some of that stuff is definitely worth the price of admission!Last edited by Jundo; 06-10-2015, 06:06 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Yes, mindfulness is therapy which borrows heavily from Buddhist meditation.
Zen is Zen.
Something like that
Gassho
Jeremy
Will sit laterLast edited by Guest; 06-10-2015, 06:48 AM.Comment
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The problem in those mindfulness approaches, and in viewing the "ego" or the "self" as delusional or a "lie", is that it creates more separations, as if there were on one side your "body" and on the other side your "logical thoughts", or your "small false self" and your "big real self", etc. etc. When you describe those meditation techniques, it seems as if there is someone observing something. It can be very interesting and useful (and comfortable) to be able to do this, but it does not solve anything until the "someone", the "something", and the "observing" are dropped.
It's the same with this idea of "lie" or "delusion". It really seems negative : "oh, i suffer because my ego is lying to me, bad, bad ego !" (by the way, who is that "i" that can "have" a separated "ego" ?). But the idea, i think, is more that there is nothing ultimately true. It's not the same as saying that our thoughts, lives, perceptions are lies. As Deshimaru said, "satori is delusion and delusion is satori", there is no separation, there is no lie. You just get what you get and then you work with it. There is no point saying "this is a lie" or "this is delusion".
I think the stuff we say to ourselves in the examples above, like "i know this anger is not me but just bodily sensations turning into thoughts which fuel bodily sensations" are just more unneeded thoughts. It can certainly help to be conscious of this, but it does not solve anything and can even be counterproductive, increasing the separation we feel about ourselves. Maybe we should just drop the whole stuff. Anger is anger and angry Ugrok is angry Ugrok, i guess. Our body and minds are not separated, and when we say "this is body, this is mind, this is thought, this is feeling", we just keep on discriminating and separating stuff that just happens as a whole.
Gassho,
Ugrok
Sat TodayComment
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Let me be clear that I was more generally speaking about the limitations of the "Mindfulness Meditation" movement in general for omitting some important aspects of Practice.
I am actually quite a fan (although as a layman who is not a professional psychologist) of what I understand to be the methods of therapy for suffering people which are Dr. Beck's Cognitive Behavioral Therapy " and so-called "Mindfulness" Therapy, as described here.
I see great benefits in any therapy that teaches us to let harmful thoughts go, and replace them with positive thoughts or silence. But I am a fan because it may bring some relief to depressed, neurotic and otherwise psychologically troubled people in crisis. The real fruits of Buddhism go much beyond that. (I see therapy as somewhat like giving insulin injections to an overweight diabetic to get them over an immediate crisis, but real "Buddhist Practice" as the diet, exercise and healthy living that they truly need beyond that).
Gassho, JALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi Ugrok,
I get your point, but maybe it's a question of 'skilful means'. I can only speak for myself, but I have the feeling that dissolving one's conception of one's self (and reality!) would be best tackled with a bunch of techniques. (I'm not particularly trying to do that, by the way).
For my part, I did a Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy course and found it very illuminating. I've also found studying Tibetan Buddhism on deluded egos, karma, emptiness and all that stuff very challenging and revealing. Reading Zen books is also good for the soul (which doesn't exist). Treeleaf can also play a strong part. Add in a lot of Shikantaza, and maybe the self will dissolve (even though that's not the aim and there is no aim, of course). We each have to find out what works for ourselves.
Gassho
Jeremy
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Hi Jundo
It surprised me how good MBCT is (I only know about how it's taught in the UK). It's not Buddhism, but it wouldn't be adopted by the National Health Service over here if it was. Judged on its own terms, it's very good
Gassho
Jeremy
Sat TodayLast edited by Guest; 06-10-2015, 07:05 PM.Comment
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Hi Jeremy,
Let me say that pursuing a variety of Practices is fine ... IF ... one's perspectives and motivations are clear. If not, it may not be good. Let me explain.
People chase after things ... new car, new clothes, new spiritual practice, next "self-help" book ... in order to find some happiness, contentment and peace. They do not know how to rest, find wholeness in one thing in this moment, drop the need and feelings of lack. Thus, if someone chases after spiritual practices out of a sense of lack and need, we call this "spiritual materialism".
To combat this, we sit Shikantaza as "the only practice, all that is needed" (but it is important that the nuance be understood). When practicing Shikantaza, SHIKANTAZA MUST BE SHIKANTAZA'D WITH A CERTAIN UNDERSTANDING, to wit:
Such is the case when sitting Zazen ... and one thus masters how to rest, find wholeness in one thing in this moment, drop the need and feelings of lack.Seated Zazen is our ONE AND ONLY practice, for by the very nature of Shikantaza ... when sitting Zazen, there is nothing more to do, nothing more that need be done, no addition needed nor anything to take away. Zazen is complete and whole. No other place to be in all the world, no other place we must (or can) run to. Nothing lacks, all is sacred, and Zazen is the One Liturgy. It is vital to be sat by Zazen with such attitude. Thus, Zazen is sat each day as the One and Whole Practice. If one sits any other way, if one sits with any sensation of "'I' need to fill some hole that is not Whole" ... one kills Zazen, gets nowhere. If one sits Zazen, one need do no other practice!
However, rising from the cushion, one gets on with life which is all "Zazen" in wider meaning. Then, people can do or not do many things, and it is all "Zazen". One can watch a baseball game or not watch a baseball game, eat a sandwich or eat spaghetti, stand up or sit down, study MBCT or try some Tibetan Practice or not ... doesn't matter. All good.
All that matters is that you learn to experience the "rest, wholeness, dropping of need and lack" right in and amid this world of motion, need and frequent lack, that they are "not two". Eating a sandwich to fill the need and hunger in one's stomach ... good, whole and complete. Not eating a sandwich and experiencing lack and hunger ... also good, whole and complete. Either way ... good, whole and complete!
We might even say that folks will not even be able to find the real treasure and fruits in so many of those spiritual practices until they come to realize that none of that was truly necessary, for nothing is lacking right from the start! They won't find until they learn how to radically not chase, and how to be still!
Understand?
Gassho, JundoLast edited by Jundo; 06-11-2015, 02:56 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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In my adolescent psychology class we touched upon this subject briefly in order to explain behavioral traits in teen and comparisons. I found it interesting then but to break it down like this has really caught my attention. Thanks for sharing this and the articles attached
Gassho
James
Sattoday (just before this Infact)
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Right, if one were to try a bit of Mindfulness, then some Tibetan Buddhist style meditation, with deeply concentrated thinking about emptiness, visualisations and all that, then move on to a bit of Vipassana, then a bit of Shikantaza and so on, that's just continuing our normal patterns of looking for satisfaction in the external world. That's not what I was saying...
...What I was saying is in relation to the illusory self, not about practice. I did a psychology degree 30 or so years ago which was very theoretical, so it's interesting now to come across some very practical approaches to dealing with the 'self' in Buddhism. For example, Tibetans can be very forthright in telling us that we're deluded and hallucinating the whole time, and when I first encountered this idea it came as quite an affront, especially coming from people who appeared to believe in hungry ghosts and various types of hell-beings
. They are right though, about the deluded part, not the hallucinations! They have some very practical advice, too. For example, in "Make Your Mind an Ocean" by Lama Yeshe (https://www.lamayeshe.com/?sect=article&id=115), they suggest:
All good stuff, and quite like Charlotte Joko Beck's approach, but more direct.When you check your mind, do not rationalize or push. Relax. Do not be upset when problems arise. Just be aware of them and where they come from; know their root. Introduce the problem to yourself: "Here is this kind of problem. How has it become a problem? What kind of mind has made it a problem? What kind of mind feels that it’s a problem?"
Likewise, Mindfulness (at least in the form devised by Mark Williams in the UK - http://www.amazon.co.uk/books/dp/074...4827408&sr=8-1 ) has some very practical things to say about the way our minds work and ways to deal with disfunctional mental habits, such as monkey-mind. Like the Lama Yeshe book, "Mindfulness, Finding Peace in a Frantic World" is a good read.
A last thought about words - I learnt a new word finding out about all this stuff: 'equivocation'. It's where an argument hinges on the misleading use of an ambiguous term. Some of the Buddhist related texts on 'self' use the terms self/ego/identity/soul as if they're interchangeable, which they're not.
For me, all of this is good stuff - food for the brain. Shikantaza is a complete act in itself.
Gassho
Jeremy
Sat TodayLast edited by Guest; 06-20-2015, 07:50 PM.Comment
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I think it's reasonable to recognize things that cause harm in the world and work to resolve them for the sake of our extended self. Pointless to fret though, changeable or unchangeable, rejecting 'what's up' is counterproductive and just makes hells for oneself...Or delighting in it too much too, things change.
SatToday
Metta,
Greg
Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk“A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope.” - Dean KoontzComment
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What a great thread! Some of the first research around depressive realism involved people's assessments of how much control they thought they had over random blinking lights. Happy people were more likely to come up with complicated theories about being in control (I pressed the button three times quickly, paused, and then two slow clicks . . . ). Depressed people were more likely to report that they did not have control. Although they were right in this instance, it doesn't mean the depressed people were more realistic. Depressed people are more likely to report that they don't have control, even when they do.
There are some instances where depressed people do better. But there is a growing body of research that shows that most of the time, in most circumstances, positive mental states lead to enhanced awareness, more creativity, a better memory, increased verbal fluency, etc. etc.
gassho
Sean
SatTodayComment
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