Despair

[Dainin]

Re: Despair

Hi Stephanie,

Listen, I'm just another schmuck that doesn't know you at all, but I sense a real suffering in your post. While I can relate a bit, I have no "Zen answers" for you. Everyone here has given those ("drop this, don't expect that, blah, blah, blah"). But sometimes I think these answers stink too much of Zen.

For whatever it's worth, it doesn't seem that your issues really have to do with Zen and/or spirituality. Forgive me, but you sound very depressed. I’m not being flip here; I can relate to that. My best advice is to seek out a very good counselor, one that you can relate to and one you can trust. If you have one now, perhaps you should look for a different one. The Zen crap will take care of itself.

Good luck!
Keith

[Jundo]

Re: Despair

Steph,

If it was buried in all these messages, I agree with Keith. Go talk to a good counselor and get some assistance with this. The Zazen does not prevent that and should not get in the way of that at all. I think. Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

Charles,

Gassho and thank you for your detailed, thoughtful, empathetic post. A lot of what you wrote resonated.

When I was badly depressed, I cast my depression in very philosophical terms. I believed that I was depressed because I didn't have good answers to the philosophical problems that obsessed me -- that because I didn't have those answers, or feared nihilistic answers, I also didn't know whether or not life was worth living. After long and difficult examination through therapy and introspection, I came to believe that my depression actually stemmed from other sources: fears and anxieties I had been unable to face; character flaws I'd been unable to own up to; my tendency to put myself into situations that I found emotionally distressing (because I was so used to being depressed that I was 'addicted' to it, more comfortable with it than I was with being happy). When I worked on these things, the depression started to subside. And then I started being able to pursue good answers to some of my philosophical questions. It wasn't satisfactory answers to these deep and obsessing questions that cured my depression; it was the cessation of my depression that allowed me to find those satisfactory answers.

Yes, I actually was pondering this very thing even before I came here to post last night. My fixation on meaning certainly persists even when I'm not in a state of despair or depression, but the consuming suffocation of being in the maw of the existential void... that tends to go hand in hand with depression, right? I also believe I would benefit greatly from therapy. I'm currently in a grad program in social work in which one tends to make a lot of self-discoveries, and I believe I've only begun to see the tip of the iceberg as to why my psyche sometimes seems so traumatized. I'm hoping to at least be able to find something this summer, if not sooner.

That said, it seems it's been a crisis of meaning that's precipitated this descent. I know being in the abyss won't persist forever, but the background aimlessness and feeling of emptiness seems to have a much longer half-life. And that's the cycle--regardless of all the causes, I know that if I don't have a sense of hope or meaning in anything, I won't be able to do the things which will pull me out of the depression. And, again, I don't as much mind being in the depression. It's the nausea of despair that literally becomes physically painful, somatic. Even when things stop being this subjectively bleak, I know it will only be a matter of time before I'm sliding back down into it if I haven't found some sort of 'meaning-pacifier.' But since I've come to see through this habitual pattern of mine, I'm not sure I'll ever find one I can believe in again.

Anyway, good advice too about forcing myself to socialize. I've been doing just that and it does help. It definitely draws one out of 'the suffering self' to some extent.

It's pretty intense right now so I can still feel the knife even when I'm socializing or working or whatever, but you're dead right that it's worse when you wallow, which is what you tend to do.

* * *

As to all you zazen fanboys--Will and Jordan, I'm talking to you--telling me to sit more: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You talk to me as if I haven't been sitting for years, and going through long periods of months, even over a year at one point, where I have indeed sat every day, if not more. In the past, I might have embraced your suggestions: Oh, if I sit more, that will fix it then! But I know better now. There are occasions--rare, but they nonetheless do exist--that sitting really isn't the best thing. This is one of them. I still sit as I can because of my commitment to the practice, but it doesn't help with the depression. It can actually make it worse if it gets bad enough, and I'm right at one of those "bad enough" moments. I'll sit and afterwards feel even more like just lying in the floor. And don't tell me it's because I'm "not sitting right." Go educate yourselves and get back to me. If you disbelieve my personal reports, a lot of research has been done about meditation, depression, and mental illness that shows that sitting zazen can actually temporarily increase pathology. If you've got a personal story about sitting with depression so intense it's started to become physically painful, please share it, but don't just blindly recommend "more zazen" to me because that's the party line around here.

[will]

Re: Despair

And don't tell me it's because I'm "not sitting right."

I wasn't going to.

I already told you I sat for 6 years with major tension and depression. And yes I've been through it all. Getting up from Zazen to sleep. A head full of gripping pain that just won't cease. Unable to feel any part of my body. Anger and frustration. Dellusion. nausea. Paranoia. Suspicion. Nervousness. Restlessness and on. Been there yo. I can only tell you from my experience. Which I did. Even if you sat every day for 20 years. I would still say sit every day yo. You'll get it. You might go through some really tough times, but you'll get it.

Gassho

Will

[will]

Re: Despair

I've said everything I have to say on this subject. I'm not going to offer anymore advice.

Gassho Will

[johnny]

Re: Despair

As to all you zazen fanboys--Will and Jordan, I'm talking to you--telling me to sit more: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You talk to me as if I haven't been sitting for years, and going through long periods of months, even over a year at one point, where I have indeed sat every day, if not more. In the past, I might have embraced your suggestions: Oh, if I sit more, that will fix it then! But I know better now. There are occasions--rare, but they nonetheless do exist--that sitting really isn't the best thing. This is one of them. I still sit as I can because of my commitment to the practice, but it doesn't help with the depression. It can actually make it worse if it gets bad enough, and I'm right at one of those "bad enough" moments. I'll sit and afterwards feel even more like just lying in the floor. And don't tell me it's because I'm "not sitting right." Go educate yourselves and get back to me. If you disbelieve my personal reports, a lot of research has been done about meditation, depression, and mental illness that shows that sitting zazen can actually temporarily increase pathology. If you've got a personal story about sitting with depression so intense it's started to become physically painful, please share it, but don't just blindly recommend "more zazen" to me because that's the party line around here.

I have another humble observation for you...

I've read a few of your posts before....you really spill your guts in your posts....crying for help out of a real sense of despair....but then when everyone offers their own advice....each out of their own generosity and compassion....you seek out those responses you do not like and you bash those individuals on a personal level for recommending one of the very things that you should be doing....just sitting...(regardless of how often you've done it in the past).

I just feel it's important to really bring this to your full attention.

I sincerely hope that you find the counseling that you need to help you get through this tough period.

- John

[Lynn]

Re: Despair

Hey Steph!

You are absolutely right...someone in deep depression/despair will not be helped along by platitudes and "just sits."

I studied clinical depression for 11 years. Had two subjects commit suicide shortly after I saw them. And, they told me they were going to do it. I contracted with them before they left my lab to call me, call my supervisor, call the local free clinic. Both of them said the same thing with, eerily, the same sad smile of a parent to a child: "If I want to do it, I will. There isn't a conversation that will stop me. I've lived with these thoughts for a long, long time." So, they did.

If it's any help, I do know a few monastics who suffer from depression and they are on medications. The Abbot did not tell them to "just sit." He sent them to get the help they really needed, in conjunction with their meditation practice. This is called "skillfull means."

Find someone near you who can really help you, dear one. If you are a student you can get some help on campus for a decent price (often free.) There are a lot of really good medications that won't burn you out or fry your brain or create apathy. They've gotten a lot more sophisticated. They will stop the brain chatter, they will put a stop to the mood swings, short circuit the anxiety. They just provide a way to get you down a slightly different path. It might be hard because a lot of people still look down their noses at people who get into counseling, or, heaven forbid, work with a psychiatrist. Screw 'em. Don't torture yourself and those around you who love you. You might feel more alive with your pain and angst, but that ain't living.

Be well.

In Gassho~
Lynn

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

Harry - :lol: Sometimes laughter is the best medicine And what you said earlier in the thread has a tonic effect as well.

Will - Advice never helps anyway. But if you would be so kind, talking about your experiences of sitting with/though all that painful stuff just might.

Longdog - You're right about compassion. I need compassion for myself right now, I know. It's just a bit hard to reach at the moment.

Keith - Not a schmuck. I'm glad you picked up on the suffering bit, that lets me know I'm not a complete failure as a communicator And you're right that a lot of what I go through doesn't originate in practice / Zen / etc. But yet a large component of my depression seems to revolve around meaning, or its absence. Maybe Charles is right, that it's a chicken and egg thing, but nothing else has ever helped me that much through all these years. And I do need to find a good counselor, I agree.

Sensei Jundo - I freely admit I don't know what I'm looking for, or what I "should" be looking for, if anything. Else I wouldn't have this problem, right? And I can tell you that I am not in love with my ideas. I've run out of ideas, and whatever crap is floating around in my head right now I can tell you I've got no love for. The words I'm throwing at this right now are just the best I can do to convey where I'm at.

Please consider the possibility that you don't know what the cause is, and that your failure to answer these questions about meaning to your own satisfaction is a symptom of your depression and not its cause. I don't know you, and I don't know that this is what's going on with you, but you should be open to the possibility. If, at the times you're most depressed, your mind is filled with these questions, it might mean that these questions are relevant to your problem -- or it might mean that they're what you throw into view to avoid looking at what's really relevant to your problem.

...

To be simplistic about it: if you're waring dark shades, you're not going to see the beautiful, totally saturated greens of grass and leaves on a foggy morning. Saying to yourself, "If only I could see bright green just once, this damned dark view of everything would go away!" misses the point. You have to take off the shades to see that color at all. As long as they're sitting on your face, you won't see it. And saying that if you could see the color, you could take the shades off, is backwards. It can't work that way. This is how depression felt to me after I got over it. It colored everything I saw and thought about; none of my questions and answers while I was in it could really get anywhere.

So yeah -- introspection. And especially therapy: a really good therapist won't allow you to bypass the things that you'll naturally bypass without noticing them when working on your own. (Of course you'll bypass them! If you weren't bypassing them your problems would probably have been worked out by now!) And while I'm talking about therapists -- in my opinion, the most important thing is to find a therapist who you connect with, but who is hard on you, who doesn't just accept everything you say and never offer alternative viewpoints. If you don't have both that personal connection, and that sort of annoying pushing coming from the therapist, I'd suggest finding another therapist. There are lots of them out there. You will find the right one if you look for a while. But if you stick with a therapist who isn't right for you, you'll get nowhere.

...

I do not claim to know what Zen is or is not. But I believe that you aren't going to be in a position to figure out what Zen, or any other philosophy, really is as long as you're very depressed. Heavy sunglasses, etc. etc.

Charles--this has all been extremely helpful. I was pondering it in the shower and it's really resonating deeply. I think there's stuff inside of me I've been not dealing with properly for a long time. It hasn't helped that religion, even Buddhism, and even Zen, tends to bill itself as the fix-all for all human problems. I think that religious culture has been helping keep me from looking at whatever this "black dog" of mine really is for a long time. And what you said about needing to remove the sunglasses first--brilliant. I think I need to pin that to my wall. It reminds me of Dogen's excellent advice, that we first must always turn the light of awareness inwards. Not, "Why does there seem to be no meaning?" But look to the mind that is asking that question and study it. Maybe it's not that there is "no meaning," or whatever, or that that search isn't a big component of what drives me, but that there's other stuff I need to look at / work through first.

Everyone else to whom I have not yet responded - Not trying to ignore you; please forgive me. I appreciate all the responses and caring here. I've just got to get out the door and to work. And I won't be back until way late tonight. Which is probably--scratch that, almost certainly--for the best anyway.

Gassho all--

[Lynn]

Re: Despair

"Freedom is nothing separate from what you're going through. There's really no escape in that sense I think. Or, if there is, I suggest you don't look for it on a Zen website full of fellow nut-jobs like us.

Harry is spot on!!

This reminds me of one of my all time favorite books by Pema Chodron: The Wisdom Of No Escape. Actually, two other books of hers that I've really enjoyed are: Start Where You Are, and, When Things Fall Apart. All excellent reads.

In Gassho~
Lynn

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

John--Obviously I've got problems. Please be patient. But I respectfully suggest that you may also be committing a bit of a "selective attention" error when characterizing me and my behavior here.

Lynn--Thank you for what you wrote. The compassion shines through. I agree with the consensus that I need to go somewhere besides or in addition to "the Zen nuthouse" for help. And Pema is the best.

Harry--The seasonal thing certainly isn't helping right now, but I've been sliding down a slippery slope for some time. It's taken me getting to the point of seeing what a mess I can become--as in, this moment of posting my insanity here :lol:--to realize I need, to use the euphemism, some "professional help."

[johnny]

Re: Despair

But I respectfully suggest that you may also be committing a bit of a "selective attention" error when characterizing me and my behavior here.

Steph,

This is kinda exactly what I was talking about...

In any case, I'm really just trying to help.....my advice is worth what you paid for it!

- John

[Yugen]

Re: Despair

Stephanie,
Please be kind to yourself.

One of the wonderful aspects of Buddhism is the recognition that in our practice we can and should avail ourselves of sources of knowledge and help from other disciplines ...

We're all thinking of you.

Gassho,
Alex

[kalka2]

Re: Despair

Two Observations:
1. Stephanie is very brave to share so much of herself here.
2. The number of compassionate, well-intended posts speaks volumes about what is avaliable in this community.

One of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given:
"Continue with regular practice."

Two excerpts from My Life As A Depressed Practitioner
1. While experiencing soul-crushing, life-sucking, no-hope, no-f@cking-point-whatsoever, depression, I continued to practice. At some point, the practice became a point of reliability, an anchor in the storm. The practice on any given day may have been good, bad or neither. But when I felt I couldn't count on anything, I saw that I could count on this one thing: Practice.

2. Internal dialog while experiencing heavy, suffocating, bleak, depression:
"I am depressed."
"Am I depressed? How much of me is depressed? Is my left foot depressed?"
"No, my left foot is not depressed."
"Then some part of me is not depressed."

Hope this helps,
Terry

[johnny]

Re: Despair

Steph,

If you're interested, I found this book to be of great help to me during a pretty intense time of depression after my father died many years ago.

http://www.livingcompassion.org/keepits ... ssion.html

It's written by Cheri Huber...I've actually read most of her books. They're written in a very "handwritten" type style of writing full of little cartoons and such. I can't say enough about how her books have impacted my life.

- John

[lindabeekeeper]

Re: Despair

Hi Steph,

Find someone near you who can really help you, dear one. If you are a student you can get some help on campus for a decent price (often free.) There are a lot of really good medications that won't burn you out or fry your brain or create apathy. They've gotten a lot more sophisticated. They will stop the brain chatter, they will put a stop to the mood swings, short circuit the anxiety. They just provide a way to get you down a slightly different path. It might be hard because a lot of people still look down their noses at people who get into counseling, or, heaven forbid, work with a psychiatrist. Screw 'em. Don't torture yourself and those around you who love you. You might feel more alive with your pain and angst, but that ain't living.

Lynn is so right on this. Medication can really help take the edge off the mental pain and allow you to get back on track. I thought for a long time that resorting to meds was a failure of discipline on my part. Not so. But taking them did allow me to top focusing so much on the pain and start developing some new neural pathways that seem to be less painful. I only regret that I didn't seek help sooner. Don't waste all your wonderful energy and focus on avoidable pain.

Warm thoughts,

Linda