Despair

[Shindo]

Re: Despair

Dear Steph

my twopence worth & please disregard as needed.

I think the depth of responses you have had is truely inspiring - both from a buddhist and practical perspective. Deep despair is a pit from which it can be hard to climb. Two years ago I was diagnosed with bowel cancer and following surgery and chemotherapy was given a 50:50 chance of not being here in 5 years time - it was a tough time and I despaired for a small part of every day for 6 - 9 months, especially during the chemo. Things that helped:

- talking to friends
- exercise
- eating right
- practice; justing sitting every day helped me balance my despair and see some of the good that this experience had brought me, namely that a lot of previously big things over which I had worried, where now brought shortly into perspective. I will pass on one of the best pieces of advice given to me at the time - who knows it may help

Be loving, kind and compassionate; focus your mind clearly in the present, hone it and hammer it until it is as dense as an anvil to develop mental equanimity; take great joy in your accomplishments and especially in those of others. Be present, be present, be present and be present

I think that the despair is still there, but it has now been integrated - I note it (as was said earlier), and occasionally use it in my armoury to get a grip and put somethings in perspective.

Best wishes

Jools

[TracyF]

Re: Despair

I agree with everyone who has said that this IS a great group. Even with the little bumps here and there, I always enjoy visiting with all of you and all of your honesty regarding your struggles have really touched me. This is practicing off the cushion, doncha think?

in my opinion, the most important thing is to find a therapist who you connect with, but who is hard on you, who doesn't just accept everything you say and never offer alternative viewpoints. If you don't have both that personal connection, and that sort of annoying pushing coming from the therapist, I'd suggest finding another therapist. There are lots of them out there.

I agree with everyone who mentioned going to a professional. I think the important part is what I've quoted above by Charles. I worry that some doctors may just shove an antidepressant prescription in your hand and be done with it. Go to a real therapist for sessions. My amateur opinion is that you may have an underlying disorder(s) besides just depression. If so, you need a therapist that will be very honest with you and may tell you things you don't want to hear. That's the guy I'd stick with. In addition to that, continuing to practice isn't going to hurt.

Steph, my problem under stress is just the opposite of yours. Most my stress is work related. My husband and daughter are wonderful. Damn luck to have them. Anyway, I don't get depressed. I get angry and hard-hearted but I bottle it up inside until I explode. Just in the nick of time, I discovered Buddhism and I'm able to deal with anger a little better. Even though our responses to intense situations are nearly polar opposites, I think we both can benefit from the same wonderful aspects of Buddhism: metta-karuna. You can find this concept in all the world religions and to some extent there are practices to build up your metta muscles ( :wink: ). However, I think Buddhism is unique in that loving-kindness and compassion are so intricately linked to the Buddhist world view (impermance, emptiness, anatta) and practices are designed specifically to strengthen this philosophy. Some of you folks think Thich Nhat Hanh is a bit of a cornball. Well, his lovey-dovey stuff is just the medicine for a hardass like me. But maybe he would help you too, Steph, if you haven't read him yet. I finally got the guts to practice with a sangha in the TNH tradition. A good gang there. Between Jundo and the TNH gang, I've got a good thing going for a beginner. I hope you continue to stick with a practice

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

I'm off to a rock show (perfect timing, eh?), but just wanted to post real quick to say how helpful you all have been to me. Reading your responses has helped clarify so much and has encouraged me as well. I have a lot of respect and regard for the folks here. I plan to respond more in depth tomorrow, but just wanted to take a moment to share my appreciation before heading out to receive some of the best therapy there ever has been... rock 'n' roll!!!!! 8) :lol: :mrgreen:

[Gregor]

Re: Despair

Steph!

Rock Out!

p.s. I prefer my rock shows with a little twang in them.

[Charles]

Re: Despair

Stephanie,

I'm very glad what I said was helpful.

It reminds me of Dogen's excellent advice, that we first must always turn the light of awareness inwards. Not, "Why does there seem to be no meaning?" But look to the mind that is asking that question and study it. Maybe it's not that there is "no meaning," or whatever, or that that search isn't a big component of what drives me, but that there's other stuff I need to look at / work through first.

This looking at the mind that's asking the question can be really hard to do. (Actually, one thing that got me interested in Zen was the idea of a new way to examine myself, to see what's really there, what assumptions I'm making about self, etc.) While I have nothing against antidepressant medications, I agree with what Tracy said 100% -- some psychiatrists will just give you drugs and monitor you, and if they think the drugs are working, that's the end of it. You'll go in every 2-4 weeks for a quick eval and prescription renewal. That may help you to deal with things in the short term. In fact, many people need meds to deal with things in the short term, and that's fine -- if you can't deal with the short term there isn't any way to do long-term work. But, it won't force you to do that long-term work, that necessary self-examination and adjustment. That's what a good counselor/therapist is for. Not just someone to whom you can tell anything, but someone who won't let you pass over all the things that your 'self' has a vested interest in passing over: the 'deep-down' stuff you really don't want to look at, that you've got blinders for, stuff that's invisible to you.

Therapy isn't a magic bullet. It's hard work and it takes a long time to produce big results (though it can also be supportive in the short-term too). But the involvement of that other person allows you to see things you have very little chance of seeing on your own, or at least helps you see those things way before you'd see them on your own.

--Charles

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

OK, you all and an excellent rock show helped me over the 'hump.' I'm not feeling so much like crawling today. I'm in a good mood even though things still seem rather meaningless to me. And that's just it--I don't mind being sad any more than I mind being happy. Which is one reason why I'm not sure that any sort of medication is the way to go for me. Because that will only address the mood front.

I've been thinking about it and I think I could easily get diagnosed as having some form of bipolar disorder. Looking back over my past cycles of revelation and downfall, strip the sense of meaning away from it all and it just looks like a bipolar going through the motions, really. Thing is that I'm so high functioning (relative to a lot of folks with Axis I diagnoses) that it's never before struck me as a potential problem.

I agree wholeheartedly that I need a good therapist and it is a goal of mine to get one whenever it becomes workable. A family culture paper we recently had to do for one of my classes helped me realize that there's a lot to work through regarding my childhood. I always overlooked it because I never went through any sort of extreme trauma like physical or sexual abuse. But now, I can see how the dynamics of my family life growing up inflicted some damage that I need to work through and better understand if I'm ever going to be able to see the extent to which my "meaning quest" is informed by it.

It all makes me wonder about this whole religion and spirituality business. But I think I've already said my piece on that.

Thanks again for all the warmth, kindness, wisdom, compassion, and good humor you've shared with me here. This is really a wonderful place.

[Skye]

Re: Despair

Glad you're feeling better, sometimes going out is just the ticket.

Try and remember how profoundly vibrant the meaningless can be - you've been at this a while, I'm sure you've tasted it. "In the domain of buddha ancestors, drinking tea and eating rice is everyday activity. This having tea and rice has been transmitted over many years and is present right now ... Each and every extraordinary activity is simply having rice."

Skye

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

Try and remember how profoundly vibrant the meaningless can be - you've been at this a while, I'm sure you've tasted it. "In the domain of buddha ancestors, drinking tea and eating rice is everyday activity. This having tea and rice has been transmitted over many years and is present right now ... Each and every extraordinary activity is simply having rice."

[Martin]

Re: Despair

Stephanie

I'm pleased that you're feeling more cheerful. Though that too will pass! I didn't post on this thread earlier because I had nothing to say that was better than the excellent advice you've been given on this thread already.

Today I came across some lines from the dancer, Isadora Duncan, and they reminded me of your pain at finding no meaning in life. She said "If I could say what it meant, I wouldn't be able to dance it".

Maybe those words will strike you as really trite. But - as someone else who's spent a good deal of time looking for "meaning" - they struck a chord with me. And they reminded me of the irritation of another artist, the poet T S Eliot, when he was asked what the line in one of his poems, "Lady, three white leopards sat under a juniper tree" meant. He replied "It means: Lady, three white leopards sat under a juniper tree". He didn't want his poetry reduced to another's meaning or controlled by another. I think when I look for meaning in life (I do it less now!) it's because I often want to reduce it or control it which is fear driven.

You may be very different, of course.

Be well, and be kind to yourself.

Gassho

Martin

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

I like the Isadora Duncan quote.

I used to be a control freak, but I had to let it go.

Living with my inner temperature has forced me to learn how to surrender. I cannot help but repeatedly push myself to the breaking point.

I like to surrender. It is at the moments where I am pinned and crushed down and have no choice but to let go that I find peace.

I have no struggle with letting the immensity of life overwhelm me. If anything, life is rarely intense enough for me.

Where does meaning come in to all this? I'm not sure. I think it is sometimes that life is... not enough for me.

Without something to live for, a reason, a meaning, a purpose, life can feel pretty banal.

And it is not the terror of an absurd existence that bothers me... it is the banality of it.

And it's not that I'm a stranger to a sense of wonder at even simple things.

But that sense of wonder is not enough to sustain my existence.

[will]

Re: Despair

You are alive and that' s about it. If your looking for an answer to a question then Zen is definitely not where that's at. So I guess we could say that Zen is learning to be alive.

And I think it's ok to trust the thousand or so teachers that agree on this point.

Gassho Will

[Eika]

Re: Despair

Hi, Stephanie.

Please, please, please, seek some professional help. There is only so much that we here can offer, and very little of it means anything if we can't see your eyes, hear your voice, etc. I perceive a dissatisfaction with life that is fairly profound (and a bit scary). One of the primary themes of Zen is learning to accept and appreciate life as it is. Your very issue is that you are unwilling or unable to accept or appreciate ALL of your life ALL of the time. All questions beyond those, I think, require some other field of expertise. I can tell you from personal experience that zazen is effective in treating anxiety but only because I didn't care if it treated my anxiety or not. My advice: stop wanting Zen to do anything for you (provide answers, make the day any better, etc.), and see a therapist who can "talk" and "prescribe." Medicines help but are more effective with talking; talking helps but is often more effective with medication.
If we didn't care, we wouldn't bother reading (at length) and responding (at length) to your posts, but we can only do so much and we appear to be nearly unanimous in suggesting counseling. I sincerely hope you can make progress toward a life that feels right for you. I hope you can also forgive my directness but I can only offer the wisdom (or lack thereof) I have, which may not be the wisdom you want.

Best of luck,
Bill

[will]

Re: Despair

But that sense of wonder is not enough to sustain my existence.

I think she's coming around. You'll get it when you look at the feeling that the sense of wonder is not enough to sustain your existence. First ask yourself who is really wondering that. It's not you. Oh and by the way I'm pretty sure it's not a sense of wonder. When there is a sense of wonder that means that "someone is wondering" and when there is sense of banality that is a also "someone" thinking about the sense of banality.

Listen to Suzuki Roshi. He was all about the oneness. You can't have any opinion or understanding about it because it's beyond opinions and understanding. There was an interview with him on Youtube (and don't have an opinion about Suzuki Roshi that's just the same stuff. Just listen to him) anyway when you can hear the bird without saying that it's a bird without realizing that you hear the bird, without any wonder about the bird, at that moment when the birds voice is heard by the ear there is no seperation and no opinion it just is. From this comes a sense of joy, like home was right there . HOME. But it's kind of hard to do that when you have a vice crushing your skull (like I did thank god for da Yoga eh) You can question it all you want, but that's not going to do anything. Consistency and honesty will bring you to that point. just keep at it.

I like this, I don't like that. wah wah wah. :cry:

A great quote (kind of): If I ask to speak to Stephanie what does that mean? If you bring me a piece of paper is that Stephanie? If you tell me about your day or what your feeling is that Stephanie? Stephanie is really a diverse collection of experiences which include a sense of wonder and a sense of doubt. Question your doubt. Look that thought or feeling right in the face. Turn it around. And pay attention to what's infront of your face. Feel your skin.

Now I am here to tell you to look at what you say and don't take it too seriously (which I kind of feel you don't, maybe some moments) I think you just like to talk,and if not then look at what your saying and describing. If you really look at it, it will show it's self for what it is. Opinions,opinions, opinions, we have em, but sometimes we get a wee little too attached to them. Practice, practice, practice.

Actually, it's better to just sit than to try to do anything. Anyway, don't forget to wash behind your ears, and brush your teeth before bed.

Ok. I Stop talky. :shock:


Have Fun

Gassho Will

[Shindo]

Re: Despair

Extract from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki

Right Attitude

Negative & Positive

Dogen-zenji said "When you say something to someone, he may not accept it, but do not try to make him understand it intellectually. Do not argue with him; just listen to his objections until he himself finds something wrong with them." This is very interesting. Try not to force your idea on someone, but rather think about it with them. If you feel you have won the discussion, that is also the wrong attitude. Try not to win the argument; just listen to it; but it is also wrong to behave as if you had lost. Usually when we say something, we are apt to try to sell our teaching or force our idea. But between Zen student there is no special purpose in speaking or in listening. Sometimes we listen, sometimes we talk; that is all. It is like a greeting: "Good morning!" Through this kind of communication we can develop our way.

Stephanie

May you be safe and protected.
May you be peaceful and happy.
May you be healthy and strong.
May you have ease of well being

Best wishes

Jools

ps - Like Bill says - go & get some help

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

I perceive a dissatisfaction with life that is fairly profound (and a bit scary).

Couldn't the same have been said of the Buddha as well? What if the Buddha had just gone and gotten some Prozac and learned to enjoy smelling the flowers?

I agree that I need to work through some stuff with a good counselor. I need to find out what degree of my sickness is spiritual and what is psychological. (An arbitrary distinction but I think a helpful one.) I need to figure what sort of glasses I'm looking through. But you will never see me get on medication just because my negative emotions can be as intense as my positive ones. If I were to lose my ability to function, or were to have destructive impulses, I would find medication a wonderful resource and would embrace it. But I don't think it's a problem that I don't feel good all the time and I don't need to introduce chemicals into my body to try to change that. Seriously. I think American culture has lost touch with the basic fact that there are ups and downs in life.

When I think about many of my personal heroes, they weren't people who were happy all of the time. Some of them suffered quite intensely. But they were true to themselves, kept asking questions, and didn't give up their wrestling with existence just because it was difficult. I didn't come to Zen or to Buddhism to calm or to soothe myself or to simply learn a better method for enjoying life. Don't they call that Bompu Zen? That's not why I'm here. And I don't get the feeling it's why most of you are here, either, which is why I'm sometimes baffled by your responses.