Despair

[Stephanie]

I apologize for my silent withdrawal from the forum for a while. I'm having a bit of a troubled relationship with Zen--not you all, mind--at the moment.

I started my spiritual search over five years ago with hopes and dreams about truth and enlightenment. It's been one disappointment after another ever since. I'm left now at the point where I'm not sure such things exist. Not only is it disappointing, but as a person who staked nearly everything on the quest of truth, without it and with dwindling hope it is possible to be realized, I'm left feeling bereft of dignity.

It feels to me now that maybe spirituality is just a form of self-entertainment, and I wonder if the past several years of my life haven't just been some childish game. Have I simply been keeping myself distracted from some underlying issue that is "purely psychological" in nature? Maybe I'm just depressed and messed up and too broken to relate to people in a way that feels real or meaningful, and my solitary spiritual search has been a way to frame that in a way that makes my life seem better, more important or meaningful, than it is.

When I do have moments where I seem to get a flash of meaning, of what *is* true about all I've practiced and studied for years, it's a bitter pill. Because it seems to me what it's all about is giving up oneself completely to compassion for others. Which is lovely, but also dreary. It makes me think of something a man I loved told me once: The bodhisattva is the one who makes the toys that the rest of the world plays with. It's a very lonely position. Is that it? For the rest of my life? Be the Giving Tree that the boy cuts down to a stump? Sometimes I can occupy that position joyfully, but sometimes I feel like I have no fuel of my own to sustain that sort of existence. And then I feel like a moral failure as well.

The answer seems simple, perhaps: just find stuff that makes me happy. But what if the only thing that has ever really made me happy now seems like it was an illusion--that is, meaning? I don't know why I feel like I've finally run out of hope with religion, but I've had that feeling for some time now, even when I haven't felt despair as acutely as I have in the past couple of months.

Can anyone here relate? Can anyone speak to my condition? Even just a little tidbit of insight would be a huge relief.

[Fuken]

Re: Despair

Steph, Enlightenment is just having the serenity to accept the things you can not change, the courage to change the things you can; and the wisdom to know the difference.

Zen schmen, clowns do not make kids happy, most kids are afraid of them. But my kids think that the local monks are da coolest!

Lighten up, smile, never give up, don’t harm others, get a Hobby that makes you actually DO SOMPTHING, strive to be happy. I could go on and on but hallmark dose not pay me at all. And I got to go about making everyone else happy too…


Has anyone seen my mind?

Gassho,
Jordan

[will]

Re: Despair

I apologize for my silent withdrawal from the forum for a while

Awe shucks. No prob.

Zen is not a religion Steph. It's about experience. It's not mental. Maybe later, but that peace comes from relaxing, and experiencing everything. Steph. You know when you were a kid and things were easier. You just enjoyed things. You could smell water (maybe) or you could smell a wet autumn day. In there is enlightenment. In that moment where everything just is. WHAT?ARE?????SEARCHING?????


Doubt, doubt, doubt. Steph. This is life. You are not special. Hehe but yet you are. Like a flash of lightening. That's your life right? So, why spend your existence chasing after something. Just enjoy the breeze. In order to do that, you have to relax and sit. And by the way if no one ever told you before, there is no Stephanie. You only think there is.

What month is it now? It's March. What's the weather like where you are? BTW not a mundane question. Actually very profound.

It seems you have yet to taste this or you have and don't recognize it. SCREW YOUR THOUGHTS and say hello to mister touch, taste, smell, seeing etc. RELAX. Are you still doing yoga?

Gassho Will

[johnny]

Re: Despair

Stephanie,

"it seems to me what it's all about is giving up oneself completely to compassion for others"....I guess the way I see it is that compassion is compassion no matter which direction we perceive that it's directed......there's simply compassion......and how can that be lonely......."who" is this person that feels this loneliness?

Words are so cumbersome because people can choose to interpret the same words in many different ways so let me just say what I want to say here.....

It sounds to me like you're just feeling a bit sad and depressed and that's probably just because you're getting swept away by the voices of your own conditioning.

All I can offer you is encouragement to keep with your practice! I don't think you'd be here in the first place if you really believed those voices in your head telling you that you're a "moral failure"! Now doesn't that sound like egocentric conditioning talking?

Peace!

John

[Jundo]

Re: Despair

Hello Steph,

Yes, I agree with what Will, Harry, Jordan and Johnny told you. Especially this:

I think despair, when we deeply accept it without resistance, is enlightenment. Joy and happiness, when we deeply accept them without resistance, is enlightenment. Everything, when we deeply accept it is enlightenment.

Perhaps what I might add is that, when we deeply embrace the despair and allow the despair without resistance, there is not the same "despair" as before. Not at all. Can we even call it "despair" in such case, as that rings so final and hopeless? It is more, "oh, my mind is sad today and that's okay ... and when my mind is happy that's okay too!". The result, believe it or not, is a kind of Joy and Peace and Happiness even in the face of a bit of despair and desperation on the roller coaster ride of life ... ENJOY THE RIDE!

Perhaps you have in your mind the wrong image of what you are looking for as "truth" and "enlightenment" when the treasure is right in front of you all along? Got my point?? Folks have all these ideas about what "enlightenment" must be like, and it usually involves a peak experience that lasts forever and never stops ... being high in ecstacy maybe, and never coming down (I am not saying you are looking for that in your case, Steph, just that most folks have preconceptions about what "Zen" is that keep them distracted with fool's gold when there's real gold in them thar' hills). Our teachings offer something much more Profound, Wondrous, Beautiful and HAPPY than just feeling happy all the time (which, by the way, is not possible ... to be human is to be sometimes happy, sometimes in the dumpster. Almost all of us are wired that way from the DNA on up).

Of course, when one is depressed, it seems that happiness is a long forgotten memory, and may never come again ...

As to depression ... as a former sufferer of depression I will offer that Zazen and Buddhist Philosophy are aids on your getting beyond that. Zen is great, and will solve much of your depression long term. However, for the immediate time, it is good to talk to a counselor and even try an anti-depressant if needed. I am not one to say that Zazen does everything by itself ... it will not brush your teeth, cure your acne or solve every problem in life. You have to do those other things yourself, or look elsewhere for additional help, or just accept the problem! But, in all cases, Zen Practice has something important to say. Think of it as a great formula for long term living!!

You want a "Truth"? Here is a "Truth":

There is nothing more "Truth" then your life right now. (Look out through your eyes. That's the universe right there. Did you think it somewhere else??) But, life is also a dream in many ways, and the "Truth" is what you make of it with your brain. Sad brain, sad "Truth". Happy brain, happy "Truth". Resisting brain, resisting "Truth". Embracing brain, embracing "Truth". Maybe your brain can't fix all the problems in this world ... as we have discussed before, the violence and poverty and such ... and lousy boyfriends ... but it can allow you to see even the beauty and ugliness of this world in new ways (and maybe will help us fix some of those problems too! That is where Compassion comes in ... both Compassion to yourself and Compassion toward others, which are not two).

So, please do not give up. When you have depression, it seems like you always will and there is not escape. I am here to say that such a belief is not true. And that is TRUE!

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Re: Despair

I'd also like to add something else Steph. You are going to have moments that seem less than desirable, but just know that they will not always be that way. Although Zen is not a religion, you do have to have some faith to get you through the days when it seems hopeless. Eventually, I guess, the days will keep getting better when you start not believing what you normally believe and get back on the cushion. For example, your tense and your belly hurts, your confused. You just want to go to sleep. Just know that it will not always be like this. Faith helps a lot I think. I've had moments almost everyday for the past 10 years where everything seems hopeless and I think that Elightenment is something I will never find. I've also had moments where I thought I got it and became cocky, but then the next day or moment I feel like shit again. You know, people have been doing this practice for freaking 2600 years. There's got to be something to it right? Why are you so different that you can't experience what all these other people have? Doubt seems to be one of the greatest barriers in practice. I've actually turned it around and became like anti-doubt. Still causes trouble, but keeps me sitting.

Look at all the advice. We know what your going through yo. Maybe not dead on, but close.

Jundo mentioned that Zen won't solve all problems. This is true. One of my biggest barriers is tension. So then I'd think about the tension and it would just make it worse. Like my head was in a vice. I'd try to get rid of it and that would just make it worse, so eventually after 6 years of trying, I've learned to just notice it and not give it my full attention, which leaves room for other stuff. I've taken up yoga along with my practice and it has helped a lot. Specifically Savasana (the corpse pose). So we all have things that we work through to be able to sit Zazen.

Gassho Will

[Gregor]

Re: Despair

Stephanie,

I can relate. My turn to Buddhism has not spared me from experiencing despair, I'm not sure if we can do anything about this other than accept it and realize that it too is a part of life. I try not to grovel in it for to0 long. Despair/depression sort of becomes a vicious cycle if we don't give ourselves a chance to see the whole picture.

Everyone's advice seemed pretty good. Although, I'm not sure if advice can always help at times like this --- but rest assured you have my empathy.

Wishing you the best,

Greg

[Ankai]

Re: Despair

Steph, before I attempt to offer anything, can I ask what you're hoping to get from Zen?

[Jundo]

Re: Despair

I'd also like to add something else Steph. You are going to have moments that seem less than desirable, but just know that they will not always be that way. Although Zen is not a religion, you do have to have some faith to get you through the days when it seems hopeless. Eventually, I guess, the days will keep getting better when you start not believing what you normally believe and get back on the cushion. For example, your tense and your belly hurts, your confused. You just want to go to sleep. Just know that it will not always be like this. Faith helps a lot I think.

Preach it Brother Will, Amen! This is so True!!

So many of the great teachers, Dogen among them, spoke of this need for faith in the Practice. I prefer the word "trust", cause faith has all that religious baggage ... but it means what you say. We have to have a deep, abiding trust in this practice even when we seem kind of lost in it. It will work out in the end.

And we need a deep trust in life ... trust in the "Great Roller Coaster" of life. That will certainly get to where it goes (which, of course, in the case of a roller coaster ... is just the place you got on!)

We also need trust, when feeling despair and hopelessness and depression, that it need not always feel like that ... and will not always feel like that. It is hard to have that kind of faith when in the heart of despair and hopelessness. Yet, it is true and we must!

Here is a very good essay on this topic by a friend of mine, Roko Sherry Chayat, a Rinzai Zen teacher. I really loved this when I read it.

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2005/fall/trust_practice.html

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: Despair

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. Your compassionate attention and caring means as much as anything.

I'm still doing yoga. I'm still sitting regularly, even if not daily. Some days are better than others.

I have been hungry for meaning for as long as I remember. Even when I was a small child.

What I don't get is, that what people seem to be saying here, is that it's just about enjoying life. Then is all this branch of Soto Zen is about is a sort of refined, balanced hedonism? 'Cause that's just it--I've never been much of a hedonist. I enjoy pleasurable things to some extent, but only so much. I know some days will be 'happier,' but the thing is, I don't really care about being happy or sad. I don't mind sadness, or pain, in and of itself. If all I cared about was getting happy, I'd hop on the pharmaceutical train. Sure, I'm a depressive, but that's not all there is to it. I've found some of my most paradoxically joyful, meaningful times have been when I've been somewhat depressed. That's not where I am now, though.

What matters to me is truth and meaning. Maybe that's a fruitless or illusory quest--I increasingly think so, actually. But I've given so much up to focus on that. If meaning is just the meaning you create, if truth is subjective, then I feel like I have nothing. So what now, I start from scratch to work on all the stuff that I never cared that much about anyway? I embrace "life as it is" when it just feels to me like an exercise in meaningless ennui? I suppose there's no other choice, as I'm not suicidal either. But that just feels like such a defeat to me. I can live with a purposeless existence--I have a pretty strong will--but can I enjoy it? I feel so alienated from others and the world around me. I have friends, I have "meaningful" work, and yet it feels like it's all just superficial.

And if Zen is just superficial nonsense too, a mind game to try to keep oneself out of the abyss, why not then just try to make a lot of money? But I don't care about money. Sex, drugs, rock and roll--I can enjoy all that stuff to some extent, but only to some extent. And then I feel the meaninglessness underneath it. If "meaning" is just "eating this ice cream cone"--what if I don't give a damn about the ice cream cone? What if I can't enjoy it? Then do I just lick for the sake of licking, because I have no other choice? That depresses me.

I think the best advice you all have given me is just surrendering to or embracing the despair. There's no other choice, really. And I know it won't kill me, though sometimes it feels like it's crushing the life out of me. And I'll wake to that brighter day. But even then, underneath it all, will be that sense of futility. I guess I hoped that Zen or Buddhism or any sort of religious practice could bail me out of that. Not bail me out of the pain or toil, but out of the futility. I used to be able to pull myself out of the hole by coming up with some formula of truth or meaning but I've done it so many times now I see through it. I still have all of my stupid ideas about meaning and existence but I have nausea for them now too.

Is all we are here to do reproduce? Am I just a defective human being whose mind is caught in some sort of glitch that causes me to fixate on this "meaning" thing? What the hell is meaning anyway? Why do people look for it? Maybe I'd be happier if I could just be numb and stupid, but then from where I am right now, I think, how banal is that? Just to toot happily along... for what?? I feel like I'll have really given up when I just ask someone to hand me some pills and be done with it.

[johnny]

Re: Despair

In my humble observation...

Your mind is very invested in all these ideas that you present in your posts. These ideas ARE the very source of your suffering. Do not entertain these thoughts...let them goooooo......

[Jundo]

Re: Despair

Hi Steph,

Where did you get this from?

What I don't get is, that what people seem to be saying here, is that it's just about enjoying life. Then is all this branch of Soto Zen is about is a sort of refined, balanced hedonism?

Who said that? Go back to the top and read carefully, slowly. You could not be any more mistaken (well, maybe you could be "more" mistaken ... but you are still pretty mistaken! :wink: ).

Nor does our philosophy teach that truth and meaning are ultimately "fruitless or Illusory", nor is it about "meaningless ennui", or just some "mind game to keep oneself out of the abyss". It does not teach "surrendering" to despair or "purposelessness". In fact, it is pretty much the opposite of all that.

I think that part of the problem is you do not know what you are looking for, or what you should be seeing. To quote Johhny, above ...

In my humble observation...

Your mind is very invested in all these ideas that you present in your posts. These ideas ARE the very source of your suffering. Do not entertain these thoughts...let them goooooo......

Gassho, Jundo

[Charles]

Re: Despair

Stephanie,

I don't really know you, as I'm pretty new here, but I'd like to offer you some advice because I think it might be useful to you. I hope that isn't too presumptuous. If what I say doesn't speak to you, you can pass it by.

I'm sorry you're depressed and despairing. It really sucks. I've done some of that myself (though it's been some years) and I know how crushing it can be. One big problem about it for me was that when I was in it, I was totally in it -- I couldn't really see how things would ever be different. I think that what Will said about faith, and what Jundo said about trust, are essential. I highly doubt that faith/trust will get you out of this funk -- that it will actually answer your problems -- but if you can hold to it, it can keep you going until you do the work you need to to get yourself out. So why should you believe in it -- that is, believe that you should trust, that you should have faith? One good reason is that there are a bunch of people here telling you that they've been in depression and despair and found a way out. That should mean something. Try to hold onto it.

So what is the answer, the thing that will get you out? I can't say. Depression is different for everyone, the reasons one suffers from it are different, the solutions are different. But there are some steps you can take that seem to work for a lot of people.

One thing that could help is doing a lot of work to figure out what the root of the problem is -- even if you already think you know what it is. You say that

I have been hungry for meaning for as long as I remember. Even when I was a small child.

and it probably looks like your inability to sate this hunger to your satisfaction is the cause of your problem. Please consider the possibility that you don't know what the cause is, and that your failure to answer these questions about meaning to your own satisfaction is a symptom of your depression and not its cause. I don't know you, and I don't know that this is what's going on with you, but you should be open to the possibility. If, at the times you're most depressed, your mind is filled with these questions, it might mean that these questions are relevant to your problem -- or it might mean that they're what you throw into view to avoid looking at what's really relevant to your problem.

When I was badly depressed, I cast my depression in very philosophical terms. I believed that I was depressed because I didn't have good answers to the philosophical problems that obsessed me -- that because I didn't have those answers, or feared nihilistic answers, I also didn't know whether or not life was worth living. After long and difficult examination through therapy and introspection, I came to believe that my depression actually stemmed from other sources: fears and anxieties I had been unable to face; character flaws I'd been unable to own up to; my tendency to put myself into situations that I found emotionally distressing (because I was so used to being depressed that I was 'addicted' to it, more comfortable with it than I was with being happy). When I worked on these things, the depression started to subside. And then I started being able to pursue good answers to some of my philosophical questions. It wasn't satisfactory answers to these deep and obsessing questions that cured my depression; it was the cessation of my depression that allowed me to find those satisfactory answers.

To be simplistic about it: if you're waring dark shades, you're not going to see the beautiful, totally saturated greens of grass and leaves on a foggy morning. Saying to yourself, "If only I could see bright green just once, this damned dark view of everything would go away!" misses the point. You have to take off the shades to see that color at all. As long as they're sitting on your face, you won't see it. And saying that if you could see the color, you could take the shades off, is backwards. It can't work that way. This is how depression felt to me after I got over it. It colored everything I saw and thought about; none of my questions and answers while I was in it could really get anywhere.

So yeah -- introspection. And especially therapy: a really good therapist won't allow you to bypass the things that you'll naturally bypass without noticing them when working on your own. (Of course you'll bypass them! If you weren't bypassing them your problems would probably have been worked out by now!) And while I'm talking about therapists -- in my opinion, the most important thing is to find a therapist who you connect with, but who is hard on you, who doesn't just accept everything you say and never offer alternative viewpoints. If you don't have both that personal connection, and that sort of annoying pushing coming from the therapist, I'd suggest finding another therapist. There are lots of them out there. You will find the right one if you look for a while. But if you stick with a therapist who isn't right for you, you'll get nowhere.

Another thing that might help is to make sure you're spending real time with people -- not just being around them but really engaging with them. If you're finding it really super hard to do this when you're depressed, put yourself into a situation in which you're forced to. Volunteer work that requires personal interaction with the people you're helping is a good way to do that. Tutor kids; work in a domestic violence shelter; work in a homeless shelter. Things like this help many people stay connected with other people, which can keep the depression from taking over every moment of your life.

Finally -- it might help you to keep very, very busy. All the time. If you do this without also working seriously in some way to deal with the root of the problem (such as therapy), it will only help temporarily and you'll end up where you started. But in combination with some hard work, it can stop you from wallowing. Which is what we all do when we're depressed. Without exception.

And if Zen is just superficial nonsense too, a mind game to try to keep oneself out of the abyss...

I do not claim to know what Zen is or is not. But I believe that you aren't going to be in a position to figure out what Zen, or any other philosophy, really is as long as you're very depressed. Heavy sunglasses, etc. etc.

I hope something in there was helpful, and I hope that you feel better soon.

--Charles

[will]

Re: Despair

You should be sitting everyday. Focus on your practice more. When I hear someone say they don't sit everyday my eyes roll. Make time.

G,W

[Longdog]

Re: Despair

Hi Steph,

none of us have walked in your shoes I'm sure many of us have visited similar places searching for answers and feeling like we're lost, uneasy and discontent.

The thing is the grass isn't usually greener else where. As Dogen said 'why forsake your own seat for other dusty places'

The answer is with you, other things you decide to do to be happy might be a distration for a while but ultimately you need to face things with in you, your assumptions about life and youself and be brave enough to face them with an open heart. The you will be able to be happy, accepting who you are, and acepting that this is the reality of life with all it's ups and downs an then you can fully engage in it. Life is a challenge, not dreary.

As regards feeling that compassion will leave you chopped away to nothing, that is not compassion, more scarifice or matyrdom. If you are truely offering compassion there is compassion for yourself too. You will be doing things not from a need to do them or show compassion but because you are compassion.

I've been chasing illusions of happiness through extreme sports, food, spiritualities, and still do to a lesser degree, had counselling, psychotherapy, taking the happy pills over the years but with zen and zazen I have come to the realisation that there is no 'something out there' that will sort it out, but there may be something out there (zen, counselling...) that can make you see that it is with in you that the answers lie.

Wish you well.

In gassho, Kev