Dogen Fascicles

[Jika]

Deep bows, Kokuu - you saved me deep trouble!

In this digital world, problems can be created so quickly. And Fugen has provided exact information which fascicle to read.
Unfortunately, I was unable to locate it (on my small screen, in the index the "Eight awakenings" look like "Fight awakenings"...).

It would have been a good practice reading the wrong chapter (95, Receiving the Precepts), of course.
And wondering what this has to do with parinirvana.

Thanks again.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Jakuden]

Just discovered this! Kokuu you are amazing.❤️[emoji120]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Washin]

Yes, great job. Thank you Kokuu, and Jakuden for digging this up

Gassho
Washin
ST

[Jakuden]

Kokuu, what is it about Tanahashi's translation that you especially like? Just curious.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Kokuu]

Hi Jakuden

I really love the poetic writing of Tanahashi's translation. It is, for me, the most readable of the translations (I only personally own Tanahashi and Nishijima/Cross but have looked at most of the others at The Zen Site. This is an interesting comparison of the various translations of Genjokoan: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...GenjoKoan8.htm). If you want a taste of the Tanahashi version, his book The Moon in the Dewdrop has translations of some of the most common fascicles, most of which have only been slightly modified in the complete Shobogenzo.

Jundo and others have said that the Nishijima/Cross translation is more accurate and I want to also read that in its entirety. Clearly, it is also the translation with the greatest connection to our lineage and sangha but the Tanahashi translation just works for me. Others may find differently. Jundo might also have a preference for our usage of Nishijima/Cross.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

Jundo and others have said that the Nishijima/Cross translation is more accurate and I want to also read that in its entirety. Clearly, it is also the translation with the greatest connection to our lineage and sangha but the Tanahashi translation just works for me. Others may find differently. Jundo might also have a preference for our usage of Nishijima/Cross.

No, no such preference. I also turn to Tanahashi Sensei as the most readable, even though he tends to take liberties, and be a bit free in his translations, sometimes. I also appreciate Soto Zen Text Project, when available, for the footnotes which trace the sources of much of Dogen's writing. Nishijima-Cross (I have been told by a couple of respected scholars) is perhaps the most precise in following the original, although for its own quirks. However, it often lacks the poetic flow so important to Dogen. Overall, however, I would recommend new folks to go with Tanahashi.

I have written here a summary of what I know of the various translations ...

SOME AVAILABLE ONLINE TRANSLATIONS OF SHOBOGENZO:

Of course, the full 4-volume translation into English of the Shobogenzo by my teacher (and Taigu's Dharma Grandfather) Nishijima Roshi and Chodo Cross (Taigu's teacher) is here in PDF (there are also book versions) ...

http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english_tripitaka/digital_download.html

There are also some other partial translations of Shobogenzo available, most by the Soto Zen Text Project (a scholarly project sponsored by Soto-shu in Japan), Robert Aitken and some others ... Here is a list ...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Shobogenzo_Complete.html

also more here

http://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/index.html

The Shasta Abbey version by Rev. Hubert Nearman does not particularly ring my bell. I find it too flowery and reverential, possibly due to the flavor of that lineage. Their founder was an incredible woman, but taken to inner voices and visions and speaking as an oracle of the Buddhas (much like Teresa or Avila). She also was trying to reconcile the Shasta Abbey practices with traditional Anglican ceremony (for example, their chants much resemble the Book of Common Prayer). Portions of the style and wording of their Shobogenzo are very "King James" in feel. So, that must be take into consideration. Their chants and practices are beautiful however, but it can be clearly felt in this translation.

Awhile back, I did ask the noted Dogen scholar, Steve Heine:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=steven+heine+dogen&x=0&y=0

(1) of all the Shobogenzo translations out there, which is the most "accurate" from the point of view of Buddhist scholarship and translation (i.e., most faithful to what Dogen actually wrote)? (2) which is the most readable by the non-specialist, while still being as faithful as possible to Dogen? I told him not to be polite to my teacher, Nishijima Roshi, in answering.

He said that, as far as Shobogenzo translations, Waddell/Abe, is perhaps the most "accurate" even though out of date in some ways (it is a reprint of renderings done in the 1970s). Tanahashi's several books are always very very good, and perhaps the most accessible to a non-scholar (at the intersection of literal accuracy and readability). He highly recommended those. Nishijima/Cross, he said, is the best of the complete translations, but it has many problems in grammar, typos and other small quirks (due to my teacher's limited English abilities and some peculiarities about Chodo Cross' style and Nishijima Roshi's personal philosophy) that it is best for serious students who can pick out the minor problems and see the underlying strength.

The Soto Text project promises someday to be the best overall, but is coming out in small doses, still spotty and not quite living up to potential yet. Nishiyama/Stevens and Yokoi are to be avoided. Cleary, Masunaga, and Shasta all have some strengths, but are not nearly as good as the first sets above.

That is from a Dogen scholar's point of view.

It is worth mentioning that Kazu Tanahashi just issued a full translation of the Shobogenzo (he had issued bits and pieces in past decades) ... although the price tag is still as hefty as the books themselves ...

http://www.shambhala.com/treasury-of-the-true-dharma-eye.html

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Souchi]

Kokuu, thanks a lot for your compilation, this is a really handy list

Nishiyama/Stevens and Yokoi are to be avoided.

Jundo, did Steve Heine explain why those two translations should be avoided? Why or in which aspects are those two problematic? Maybe you can shed some light on this... ?

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

[Jundo]

Kokuu, thanks a lot for your compilation, this is a really handy list



Jundo, did Steve Heine explain why those two translations should be avoided? Why or in which aspects are those two problematic? Maybe you can shed some light on this... ?

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

Hi Stefan,

I do not recall his reasons, but my general impression from within the wider Soto world and from my own personal experience, is just that they are often poor translations, too free and too far from the mark. One review I know discussing both:

First let us consider the Nishiyama/Stevens translation. ... Another disturbing editorial problem is hinted at in this excerpt from the Translators' Note (p. xxii):

Consequently, while much of this translation follows the original text quite closely, there is some paraphrase or interpretation of certain passages in order to make it intelligible to western readers.

In practice this means that some sentences of SBGZ are skipped entirely or paragraphs are "paraphrased" into single sentences without any indication by means of ellipses, brackets, asterisks, or footnotes. The translators seem to feel this is justified since it follows the style of Japanese gendaiyaku (translations of classical texts into modern Japanese), but they forget that the gendaiyaku reader usually has the original text in front of him so he knows what the modern rendering is attempting to translate or paraphrase. Furthermore, the criterion for determining what might be "unintelligible to western readers" is left unstated. Certainly, it is not only the presence of Buddhist terms or references to historical facts. "Paraphrasing" seems to enter in whenever there are complex passages requiring a sensitivity to the subtleties of Dogen's thought. I suspect the translators were often influenced by their own bewilderment as well as by their compassion for the Western reader.

Since it is obviously not a scholarly work, how well does Nishiyama/Stevens serve the general reader? The book receives very high marks for readability and even the least experienced reader of Zen materials should be able to follow at least some of the main drift of the various fascicles. The price paid for this premium on readability is lack of nuance, both linguistic and philosophical. Footnotes are scanty and are used mainly for giving the dates of historical figures. Difficult passages are interpreted in the most straightforward way possible and we seldom find the insightful interpretative renderings that occasionally show up in Kennett's translation, for example. Hence, the primary value of Nishiyama/Stevens is its potential completeness: we simply have no other alternative if we wish a translation of the entire SBGZ.

...

... [Regarding Yokoi] A couple of points are important enough to merit discussion here, however. For "dharma" the glossary only supplies the meaning of "standard" or "universal norm or law." Yokoi's translation also follows this limited interpretation of the meaning of "dharma." As I have noted earlier, however, Dogen often uses the term to mean either "teaching" or "thing-as-experienced." This specific misinterpretation also points to another major limitation of the glossary, namely, the terms are defined according to their general Buddhist meaning and Yokoi does not make mention of Dogen's own particular interpretation. To take the clearest example, "Buddha-nature" is defined as "the potential to realize enlightenment innate in all things," yet as Yokoi must know, Dogen explicitly denies this interpretation (in his "Buddha-nature" fascicle) and claims that all of being is Buddha-nature; Buddha-nature, for Dogen, is not something that beings have. Hence, I think the glossary could have been more useful and less misleading if it had also included references to Dogen's own view on the meaning of certain key terms.

How good is Yokoi's translation? Basically, I feel that it is as readable as Nishiyama/Stevens but it also reveals more subtlety in the translation of nuance. As far as I could tell in a cursory check, Yokoi does not delete or paraphrase the original in the manner followed by Nishiyama/Stevens. This does not mean that Yokoi's is a literal translation, however. Often he attempts to convey the spirit rather than the letter of the original, but he usually stays within the bounds of interpretative license. Yokoi does tend to strip Dogen of much of the more technical vocabulary, but he does so in a way that would seem beneficial to the novice reader of such texts. The more serious or more trained student of Buddhist thought, however, might miss some of the critical nuances that are lost in such a translation. Yokoi is not a Dogen scholar nor even a Buddhist scholar per se, but he does have some sensitivity to what Dogen is doing and he communicates very well the understanding that he does bring to the text. My deepest regret about Yokoi's translation is in his selection of texts. ...

T. P. Kasulis
Assistant Professor of Philosophy, University of Hawaii.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/...hilosopher.htm

I can provide one example for Nishiyama-Stevens. A famous portion of Genjo Koan is translated as follows by Takahashi Sensei, which I consider the nicest compromise of accuracy and poetic sense ...

To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and illuminate the self is awakening.

My teacher Nishijima with Chodo Cross has this ...

Driving ourselves to practice and experience millions of things and phenomena is delusion. When millions of things and phenomena actively practice and experience ourselves, that is realization.

Waddell-Abe have

Practice that confirms things by taking the self to them is illusion: for things to come forward and practice and confirm the self is enlightenment.

But what Nishiyama-Stevens has is really very free and seems too abbreviated, seemingly almost the opposite in meaning from the original and what the others say ...

It is an illusion to try to carry out our practice and enlightenment through ourselves, but to have practice and enlightenment through phenomena, that is enlightenment.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Souchi]

Thank you, Jundo

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

[Souchi]

Compiled the listing of the Shobogenzo fascicles in a document (both "Original => English" and "English => Original"). Please feel free to use it.

Complete listing in both ways: tanahashi_shobogenzo-fascicles.pdf

The source of the PDF file (had to split the source document into several single files due to the size restriction of attachments):
tanahashi_shobogenzo-fascicles_orig-eng.doc
tanahashi_shobogenzo-fascicles_eng-orig-1.doc
tanahashi_shobogenzo-fascicles_eng-orig-2.doc

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

[Jundo]

Compiled the listing of the Shobogenzo fascicles in a document (both "Original => English" and "English => Original"). Please feel free to use it.

Complete listing in both ways: [ATTACH]4126[/ATTACH]

The source of the PDF file (had to split the source document into several single files due to the size restriction of attachments):
[ATTACH]4127[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]4128[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]4129[/ATTACH]

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

Thank you.

I would also like to thank the anonymous benefactor who just donated to the Sangha a hard cover version of Tanahashi Sensei's Shobogenzo translations. Thank you, and it is very helpful.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday