No 'I' ... No 'Know'...

[Rich]

Cool beans and happy thanksgiving.

Sat today

Kind regards. /\

[Myosha]

Awakening is the biggest joke in the universe.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

Useless.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Nindo]

In my experience, at that moment, there is no need to know, no need for an 'I' to know, and no value to give to the 'thing' you talk about.

Well said.

Your practice is absolutely perfect. Exactly as it is. You are the practice and the fruits of the practice.

To truly believe that seems to be the biggest barrier.

Gassho,
Nindo

_/sat today\_

[dharmasponge]

Thanks for your replies.

There seems to be a sort of selective 'I' at times in some responses. For instance Lisa said "...'you' cannot get it right..." and I understand that as the self is empty there's nothing to gain or be gained. But later this same 'you' might have insights as a result of sitting.

I can't put my finger on it but that's seems to be selective.

Like there is no self......apart from when I want there to be.

Does that make sense?

[Jika]

Tony,
makes sense if our non-existent selves sit on our non-existent zafus on non-existent G+ together?

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12922-Ideas-for-European-Time-Zone-sitting-group&p=142796#post142796

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Jishin]

No 'I' ... No 'Know'...

Does that make sense?

No.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[Kokuu]

There seems to be a sort of selective 'I' at times in some responses. For instance Lisa said "...'you' cannot get it right..." and I understand that as the self is empty there's nothing to gain or be gained. But later this same 'you' might have insights as a result of sitting.

Tony

As far as I understand it, the insights you get are of a relative nature (the relative world in which there is an 'I' and a 'you', in which we need an identity for a bank account, to eat well for our own health and to make choices moment by moment in work and family life).

In Zazen, that you and I drops away, leaving sensation but no senser, thoughts but no thinker, no inside or outside, self or other.

Explaining meditation practice or any kind of non-dual spirituality is fraught since we still use conventional language such as you and I to denote the fact that while the universe is one whole interplay of energy and matter, there are also people who exist in a conventional way and interact with each other.

My advice would be to think about this as little as possible and place more emphasis on practice and then living. Understanding is overrated compared to sitting then acting and is the main reason for setting apart heaven and earth. Basically, you are not going to understand practice except by doing it. Thinking is more likely than not to be a hindrance rather than a help.

Søren Kierkegaard put this better than anyone I know:

Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

Zazen is the best way to experience reality. Conceptual thinking is the best way to avoid it. Our logical minds are still convinced though that were we just to be able to understand how things are, everything would fall neatly into place. This, in my opinion, is wishful thinking. Whenever I start analysing ideas of self and non-self I remember that it is probably time to make some tea and look aimlessly out of the window. I don't say this to denigrate you in the slightest as I have done it but it led nowhere except to tie my brain in a knot.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Myosha]

Hello,

Imagine this was real.

Good fun.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Rich]

No " I", no "know"
That would be "just don't know" as taught by Sueng Sahn. You don't have to explain anything or understand anything and there is no end game. Just don't know is just sitting.

Sat today

Kind regards. /\

[Jundo]

No " I", no "know"
That would be "just don't know" as taught by Sueng Sahn. You don't have to explain anything or understand anything and there is no end game. Just don't know is just sitting.

Sat today

Kind regards. /\

But sometimes folks think that Sueng Sahn meant that, by "just don't know", we should just end up wallowing lost in some ignorance and confusion. That is not what he meant. Oh, of course, sometimes while sitting we feel lost and confused, and that is okay when it happens.

But "Just don't know" opens and flowers as a certain Wisdom which is a very clear "not-knowing-knowing".

There is also a great Compassion. Perhaps it is a bit like asking, of a pregnant mother and her unborn child at the moment of birth, if "she" loves the "child", or if mother and child are one, or if there is just motherly love? Are there two or one or not one not two? Yes No Both Neither? Is such a matter of words alone, need it be broken into labels and categories? Something like that. Some beautiful answers come when the analysis is put aside. Not knowing ... not needing to say ... is truly just knowing motherchildlove.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Peacemouse]

Tony

As far as I understand it, the insights you get are of a relative nature (the relative world in which there is an 'I' and a 'you', in which we need an identity for a bank account, to eat well for our own health and to make choices moment by moment in work and family life).

In Zazen, that you and I drops away, leaving sensation but no senser, thoughts but no thinker, no inside or outside, self or other.

Explaining meditation practice or any kind of non-dual spirituality is fraught since we still use conventional language such as you and I to denote the fact that while the universe is one whole interplay of energy and matter, there are also people who exist in a conventional way and interact with each other.

My advice would be to think about this as little as possible and place more emphasis on practice and then living. Understanding is overrated compared to sitting then acting and is the main reason for setting apart heaven and earth. Basically, you are not going to understand practice except by doing it. Thinking is more likely than not to be a hindrance rather than a help.

Søren Kierkegaard put this better than anyone I know:

Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

Zazen is the best way to experience reality. Conceptual thinking is the best way to avoid it. Our logical minds are still convinced though that were we just to be able to understand how things are, everything would fall neatly into place. This, in my opinion, is wishful thinking. Whenever I start analysing ideas of self and non-self I remember that it is probably time to make some tea and look aimlessly out of the window. I don't say this to denigrate you in the slightest as I have done it but it led nowhere except to tie my brain in a knot.

Gassho
Kokuu

Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?

Chet
(Sat today)

[Anshu Bryson]

Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?

Chet
(Sat today)

Hi Chet,

I find that things seldom drop away while IN zazen ; I think I would freak out if things dropped off while I was going about my daily business...! Or, maybe all the lights would come on; I am not sure...! I'd be interested to hear what it is you are experiencing...

Gassho,

Bryson

sat today

[Peacemouse]

Hi Chet,

I find that things seldom drop away while IN zazen ; I think I would freak out if things dropped off while I was going about my daily business...! Or, maybe all the lights would come on; I am not sure...! I'd be interested to hear what it is you are experiencing...

Gassho,

Bryson

sat today

Hey Bryson,

I'm talking about a sudden realization that the voice inside your head that points to you is pointing at nothing-in-particular...or the realization of the ridiculous opinion or judgment that you normally cherish but suddenly appears to actually be ridiculous. Or maybe just the brief disappearance of boundaries between things.

Chet
(Sat today)

[Ugrok]

Hello !

Duality drops off and comes on all the time, no ? I mean, when you're doing stuff, and you are really involved in it, there is no "you" and "stuff", just the doing. I see that a lot in aikido, but also in all life. Maybe zazen is pure action, that's why it helps dropping the boundaries.

I love it when judgements you cling to become ridiculous, i have a lot of those moments as well, it's fun !

Gassho,

Ugrok

Sat Today

[Kyonin]

Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?

Chet
(Sat today)

Hi Chet,

Yes this has been happening to me quite often, especially after the retreat. I feel more at peace among the usual chaos of life. It's hard to take sides and grasp to my opinions in situations and I can see things I had never seen before.

Sometimes when I'm focused in an activity, shaving or yoga for instance, I forget about the body and just do one thing with the mind where it has to be. The I is dropped for a few moments.

Strange

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday