Still here not there....

[dharmasponge]

Hi everyone,

Dogen and Shikantaza as explain here is fast becoming a Koan of sorts to me. I now feel compelled to reconcile what is apparently clear ad daylight to many in here. I have oft thought of walking away from Zen (Soto) as I could, I suppose, be busy practicing another form instead of trying to work out what Dogen is teaching.

I guess it boils down to the fact that almost every response I receive is what we SHOULDN'T be doing as oppose to addressing the question which is more often than not what SHOULD we be doing. I speak specifically re Zazen in this context.

Sometimes post sitting I get a small and brief glimpse into something that seems to say "you cannot go anywhere as you're already there and you cannot gain anything as you already have it".

But that feels like some sort of ego bloating solipsistic stance I am not prepared to acknowledge.

Dogens 'Practice is Enlightenment' eludes.me still and despite being able to fathom most philosophical quandaries I am left cold re this.

Practice is practice surely? Practice in order to get better....To improve...To become proficient? Proficient at sitting in order for the mind to become quiet enough to experience reality as it is. This has purpose, aim and a result from the labours.

To say there is no gain, no result, no attainment (at all) and no method seems to fly in the face of logic.

I can hear "there is no logic", "drop all thought of result", "just sit and let go of any though of this or that"

....means nothing to me, but I am guessing it really should?!?

I am on then circumference of frustration re this now.

_/|\_

[delphizealot]

I sometimes have the feeling that I'm wasting my time in zazen. Then again, I also sometimes feel like I'm itching or that I'm bored or that I'm lopsided or what have you. I think it's wise not to take "you cannot gain anything as you already have it" too seriously. Likewise, "This has purpose, aim and a result from the labours" and "I am guessing it really should?!?". My take (meh) is that isn't a practice of accretion (of skills or enlightenment or other wholesome things), but rather of ablation (of fetters, craving and other unwholesome things.) This doesn't mean that we don't develop skills as part of the practice and cultivate a wholesome mind, but that development is a natural consequence of having cleared away the rubble.

I could be completely off base here, but that's how it seems to me. I am not so certain that this is as clear as daylight to many in here (it doesn't really seem clear to me, even though I try to fumble at words to recall something I imagine I once knew). Then again, perhaps it is and I'm just blinded by my own reflection. Proficiency and mastery of this mind is a clear goal, but ultimately as long as I am led around by the goal, however noble, I am still not my own master. So how do I drop the reins of thought without letting it run rampant? Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that one. Currently I can barely keep the reins in place.

[RichardH]

What the huh? This is all tangled like bowl of noodles. Dharmasponge... There is dissatisfaction. It is unsatisfying. You will never win, never get it. No one does. Just lose. Just sit and fail. Just sit and be a loser...and wiggle your toes. I'm not being sarcastic. Gassho Daizan

[dharmasponge]

What the huh? This is all tangled like bowl of noodles. Dharmasponge... There is dissatisfaction. It is unsatisfying. You will never win, never get it. No one does. Just lose. Just sit and fail. Just sit and be a loser...and wiggle your toes. I'm not being sarcastic. Gassho Daizan

You see, and I cannot emphasise enough that I mean this with all respect!

That means absolutely nothing to me at all.

It just comes across as nilhistic and defeatist.

Sit and Fail...WTF! Why even bother???

Be a loser....again, what for??? Why?

So ambiguous to the point of n=being meaningless.

Sorry Daizan - I am really really not having a dig at you as I actually think your post is very 'Zen'.

Who said the following:-

"...Zazen is like a running river, as soon as you try to catch it its gone....as soon as you try to describe it, its something that's not that. Grasping at shadows in the dark is the real waste of time, rather sit on a lotus and expect to float....".

Huh?

[Meikyo]

Dear Tony

I've kept an eye on your previous threads as they to me always seem to produce something fruitful.
Please do not mistake me for teacher. I'm writing this with the hope that a jolt from a fellow neophyte may help you in some way. Also it's a chance for me to get better at explaining something important. Please don't take it too seriously. Still learning.

Let's say you run [sit Zazen] in order to get exercise [Enlightenment i.e. simply seeing things as they are].

When you run you're actually getting your exercise. Maybe you're not a good runner; you get bored, overwork yourself or can't finish. But the fact is you're still getting the exercise even if you somehow fail.

You exercise because you've realized that it is good for you in some way.

Now it's true that when you run you will improve. You will be able to run longer and faster and so on. But that's a just a nice side effect. That doesn't mean that when you reach er certain level of fitness you'll stop your running. Or that the exercise is over with this milestone reached. You don't think " must get better at excising/running" while running - you just exercise-run further. Can you really ever finish? If you think that exercise is something you reach or strive for by the process of running...that it's...coming...coming...No! You're mistaken. Your running is your exercise.

Now you've finished your running exercise for today. What have you gained? Nothing! At all! You've spent time running in circles. And yet: You just got some exercise. This requires a little doublethink to understand. Only when you get both at once can you accurately say what you've been doing. If you don't get that* then...you just don't. And then it's time to move on.

* Hard part: How can you truly get both when they contradict each other? By transcending the dualistic mind. Easier said then done.

Now it's time for someone to untangle my noodle-mess. Surely there must be mistakes to clear up.

Gassho

[Jishin]

Hi Dharmasponge,

I make and unmake teachers. Ultimately my opinion is the only one that matters. If I am lucky, during zazen even my opinion becomes worthless.

Gassho, Jishin

[Rich]

When Daizan talks like that, I get it and laugh. Sam, I think you are taking yourself too seriously, too intellectually. We don't know anything so we make up stuff to feel better about it. "sit on a lotus and expect to float...." that's beautiful and something to smile about.

Kind regards. /\

[Mp]

I think you are taking yourself too seriously, too intellectually.

Oh so true ... I used to fall into this trap so many times when I was younger. Acceptance helped me with this; being with what is helped me with this; not trying to know or understand everything helped me with this. There are times when we do need to understand something, but from my experience that is very few and far between. So the remainder of the time, I just be ... I live life riding the lotus and if that lotus doesn't float, then I guess it is time for a swim. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[MyoHo]

Hi guys,

Frustration and even anger can be a gateway too. So what if someone does not " get it"? What is " it" then? Get shikantaza? None of us get it so please, dharmasponge, dont trouble yourself with the idea of beeing left behind.

Maybe a good question to ask is why getting something or having a clear goal is so important to us all. Do we fully understand a computer or a car in order to use it? No So when feeling frustrated and confused, sit with that because that is you on the moment of sitting. The idea of dropping the confusion, frustration to reach some other and better state others seem to have is nonsense. Take the frustration of " not geting it" and examine that. Focus on it and breathe. Unwrap the anger that is pain in desguise and unwrap it like a present. At some point you will get tired of it an then you drop it.

Maybe it helps to know, I for one sure dont get it. Dont want to anymore. Sometimes I sit and listen to the world outside or just to have a moment of peace away from demanding chores, wife and kids. Thats all there is. I dont feel any different or better after 40 minutes. Sometimes sitting for the sake of sitting is all. Wait a minute..... thats kinda the point of sitting.

You are a great and inteligent guy and maybe your questionig and searching already is the pathless path. You have a strong grasp of the " don't know" mind. Stronger then me anyway. Im stupid and should question things more often, like you do. It is what makes you unique. Moonfaced Buddha, Sunfaced Buddha, I dont get it Buddha. All Buddha, whole and complete as is. No need to feel less or search for something that others seem to have or understand.

Gassho

Myoho

[Yugen]

Thank you Myoho. Deep bows
Yugen


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[Hans]

Hello Dharmasponge,

please forget Dogen for a moment.

Sitting in Shikantaza is one way of entering deeper into the often wonderful and equally mysterious way of experiences that arise constantly and which we call wonderful and/or painful.

Whether you call it "dropping off", "surrendering" or "stepping off the tracks" matters little...it all leads to the same practise.

Letting be. Or as a teacher I know once put it "We stop trying to avoid, close down, manipulate, or control what arises in experience."

But we don't do it by turning off attention, but by cultivating attention and opening to boundless presence without a goal oriented mind.

Now, why you would even want to explore reality this way can only be answered by yourself. Which leads to a related question we should all ask ourselves once in a while: Why are we doing this? What do we hope to gain?




Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Hi,

I don't think this Practice is for everyone. Maybe it is not for you, Tony.

However, to some of us, your questions are like someone who does not yet know how to ride a bicycle saying, "I can't get how someone can stand up on two wheels, looks physically impossible!" It is like someone who has not yet fallen in love saying, "I can never fall in love". Neither is so hard once one does it!

But some folks might never fall in love, and just don't have it. I don't know. It may not be for you, and some other Practice or Way is better. But there is no way to know except with time.

I will say that Zen Masters of old sometimes spoke of students not "getting it" for years or decades (and some never)! Others take to it right away! The Koan Zazen folks speak about having to have Great Doubt to have Great Realization. I think that is true too for our gentle Soto Way that also turns the universe upside down and back again.

Some folks know how to put down the judgments, the goals, and just rest in Wholeness and Presence. It is just because humans are not hard wired to do so easily (my cat seems better able. This is from the wonderful "Dharma the Cat" cartoons) ...



I was just reading some words by Rinzai Teacher Jeff Shore on what they "Non-Attain". He describes the Practice of working with a Koan in Zazen and Kensho, and though the means is very different, the final non-destination is always the same ...

How to describe it? All is gathered into one, and frozen. No longer any inside or outside. When this resolves – dissolves – practice truly is realization, as Dogen is fond of saying. Recall Rinzai: “There’s nothing to it!” And the Chinese monk who became the second patriarch: “I have searched for it thoroughly and it is, finally, unattainable.” ... What happens when the koan is realized? We really don’t attain anything. There is nothing to attain. We don’t gain a thing. I would say, on the contrary, we lose one thing: the separation: the separation from the world, from others, and from who we really are. That is all. We separate from the separation. Or better yet, the separation itself falls away of its own accord. Then for the first time we really know what this thing is [pointing at his feet].
file:///C:/Users/J.M.Cohen/Downloads/BuddhistDownload/ff-a_rinzai_soto_dialogue%20(1).pdf

So, get back to your cushion and keep trying ... perhaps another minute, perhaps another year, perhaps never.

You may eventually get up on the bicycle that you have been already riding all along.

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

I have a very happy doberman called dharma.

Gassho, Jishin

[Yugen]

Still here not there....

I'm envious Jishin - my dogma ate my karma

Deep bows
Yugen


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[Jishin]

I'm envious Jishin - my dogma ate my karma

Deep bows
Yugen


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My dharma loves bags of bones.

Gassho, Jishin