Still here not there....

[RichardH]

You see, and I cannot emphasise enough that I mean this with all respect!

That means absolutely nothing to me at all.

It just comes across as nilhistic and defeatist.

Sit and Fail...WTF! Why even bother???

Be a loser....again, what for??? Why?

So ambiguous to the point of n=being meaningless.

Sorry Daizan - I am really really not having a dig at you as I actually think your post is very 'Zen'.

Who said the following:-

"...Zazen is like a running river, as soon as you try to catch it its gone....as soon as you try to describe it, its something that's not that. Grasping at shadows in the dark is the real waste of time, rather sit on a lotus and expect to float....".

Huh?

Hi Tony. It's meant well. ..and I'm not trying to be clever. It took me way to long to fail, to just give up the ghost. It is the failure of the planner, the controller, the captain in the head, the one who wants to figure it out... to get it. Sometimes I think it would have been great to meet a teacher like Jundo twenty years ago... and maybe there would not have been so much melodrama on the cushion for so long. But I'm starting to think that these things just have to play out... there was no shortcut.

I hope you do not lose heart and that you do keep sitting, and not mind comments like mine from the peanut gallery. Deep bows Daizan.

[dharmasponge]

I went on a bike ride this evening. Lovely this time of year in the South West of England were I live. I was riding on 'the levels' - a very rural and wild part of Somerset and I stumbled across an old church. It was starting to go dark so I went inside and immediately smelled that old church smell of wood, flowers and stone. I guess if you have never been to an old church in the UK you'll have no idea what I am talking about Anyway, it occurred to me that as I have no experience of enlightenment I just have to have faith that just sitting will one day bear fruit. But then all the people who walk in the cold to that old church pray to a god who's existence they can only have faith in.

Just sayin' .....

[dharmasponge]

Jundo, thanks for you patient words.

I had a thought immediately after reading your post. Maybe it is to do with faith. Faith that Shikantaza can bear the fruit that yes, I seek.

[Yugen]

Still here not there....

Tony,
You are on to something. Faith not of the type that means accept other people's ideas blindly, but confidence in yourself to be steadfast in the midst of uncertainty.

In zen we say practice requires three elements: great faith, great doubt, and great determination. Faith in ourselves as the source of our own truth, doubt as a source of questioning and always seeking, and determination .... Well... I think you know what that means. You have displayed that readily in seeking answers to questions you have - an admirable quality.

Stick around awhile and see where the path leads. Not all who wander, as they say, are lost.

More bike rides in the countryside are in order it seems!

Deep bows and thank you,
Yugen


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joyo]

Oh so true ... I used to fall into this trap so many times when I was younger. Acceptance helped me with this; being with what is helped me with this; not trying to know or understand everything helped me with this. There are times when we do need to understand something, but from my experience that is very few and far between. So the remainder of the time, I just be ... I live life riding the lotus and if that lotus doesn't float, then I guess it is time for a swim. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Thank you for sharing, Shingen. I was beginning to think I was the only one that just doesn't get everything, but has let it go. For example, I also do not always get zazen, or undertand the Heart Sutra. But the little glimpses that I do understand are like the sun's rays shining through the clouds. The entire sun is too difficult to look at, so I just enjoy the view.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Risho]

Man this is an awesome topic. Some days zazen for me is awesome and peaceful, some days I absolutely just can't wait for the bell to ring. But awesome to whom? Crappy to whom? Who is this hurting, or what am I gaining? Nothing.. The important thing is to keep on keepin' on. Really, just show up. Just sitting and accepting is dead. But questioning and doing nothing else is just going to break you away from practice. Like Yugen said, I think great faith, great doubt and great determination just help it all balance out.

I mean our minds are going 24 - 7.. ok I'm generalizing. My mind really goes 24-7, but after sitting for a while, you start seeing what it's doing, and maybe once in a while you aren't pulled into it so much. That storyline in our heads really causes a lot of unnecessary grief. If we approach Zen as a goal oriented practice, it loses its magic because by grasping we are still caught in that mind.

That being said, I have trust in the teachers here and in the practice and the Buddha ancestors. I have determination to keep going when nothing makes sense. And I really don't have anything. That's why sangha is so important; we sort of kick each other's ass... ok more like support each other on our practice because it is easy to fall off the path when the honeymoon period is over.

Anyway, tons of great posts here. Thank you everyone.

Gassho,

Risho

[Rich]

Excuse me Tony, I got your name wrong.

Kind regards. /\

[Jundo]

I went on a bike ride this evening. Lovely this time of year in the South West of England were I live. I was riding on 'the levels' - a very rural and wild part of Somerset and I stumbled across an old church. It was starting to go dark so I went inside and immediately smelled that old church smell of wood, flowers and stone. I guess if you have never been to an old church in the UK you'll have no idea what I am talking about Anyway, it occurred to me that as I have no experience of enlightenment I just have to have faith that just sitting will one day bear fruit. But then all the people who walk in the cold to that old church pray to a god who's existence they can only have faith in.

Just sayin' .....

A Koan for Tony ...

Maybe such is like riding a bike on a lovely evening, thinking the church is something one must stumble upon or head to to find. Is the church confined by walls?

The sacred smell of wood, flowers and stone permeates everywhere.

Do not be in the South West of England looking for signs pointing to the South West of England. Like a man in Somerset looking for Somerset.

Up and down, right and left ... all "the levels".

Where on your ride was not the ride? Are you riding through the evening or is the evening riding you? Everything Riding and Always Evening.

Starting to go dark, yet the light is shining.

Just sayin' .....

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

Tony

I share all your confusion and whenever you post something, it feels to me you are speaking my mind. No wonder Risho called you sam.

There is an inherent confusion/contradiction in the teaching. You are given a method to follow. There is an object and you have the discipline of bringing the mind back to it. There is right (focused on the object, waking up from thought quickly) and there is wrong (caught up in thought/emotion longer) and hence we always have the judgements and dissatisfaction basing on how our sitting went. On the other hand we are told not to judge, there is nowhere to go, nothing to attain. If there is no where to go can I just relax and not bring my mind back to the object? I can't. So I have to take the method seriously and follow it diligently and yet make myself believe that nothing is going to change and not judge the practice. Especially as a beginner when my mind is so caught up in thought, it becomes even harder not to judge the practice or to have faith in all of this philosophy/mindset.

They say actions speak louder than words. Here philosophy is the "words". Action is "Sitting and following a method/discipline". On one side I am controlling my meditation with a discipline and on the other side I am saying it doesn't matter. I feel as long as we are following a method and discipline, there is no connecting with the philosophy behind it other than blindly believing it.

There is one thing I have tried though which I feel worked for me. Drop the method. Drop the discipline (of "strictly" wanting to bring the mind back from thoughts). Simply sit. Sit with deep knowing that whatever happens is okay. There is no right or wrong. If the mind gets caught up in thought and you realize after some time, it is okay. We are not putting any rules that the mind needs to be less caught up or aim for it. Of course at the same time we don't sit and try to solve a problem or "purposefully/intentionally" try to think of something. We are not trying to get it right as we have set no goal/discipline/object/method-to-follow. This is a big burden relieved for the mind. When I tried this simple sitting for few months, I felt like I really was able to connect with the philosophy. When I didn't control my meditation and allowed it to be as is, I was able to control my life too less. I was less in conflict with the flow of my life, Not really wanting to understand/know everything, Shobogenzo made more sense, Was able to accept tough people at work more easily etc...

Of course many zen teachers don't recommend this and I didn't have the courage to stick with this either even though I felt it was working. I may go back to this. Just wanted to share this with you. The answer to all your confusion may be in this. You can try this for a couple of months and see if it works for you or at least the philosophy starts making sense. Or you can drop the philosophy for now and choose to strictly keep following the method with the faith that the confusion will be cleared one day.

Gassho,
Sam

[dharmasponge]

Thanks to all. So supportive. I promise my determination is coming from the right place.

Jundo, this practice is for me. I am like a dog with a bone now and will not rest EVER until I can hold on to this slippy stone.

A big deep bow to you all. _/|\_

[Jinyo]

Thank you for this thread.



Willow

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

As humans we want to understand, to rationalise (Homo sapiens = thinking 'man', after all). Dropping all attempts allows us to be with experience and that is all there is. Everything else, including wanting to know why and how, is extra. Why put extra on top of experience? Zazen is a dropping away of concepts. Think of it as practice of experiencing life, a quiet place where you can see clearly. Does that make a difference?

Your country church (which I love too and have a favourite around here) is just like that. You drop right into the experience, that is your zazen right there. You don't have to think why or how this experience is taking place, whether it is worth doing or where it is taking you but just to be there. Try the same with zazen.

Thinking is a very human thing but not always helpful. Pure experience occurs in open awareness without the solidity we are so keen on as humans. You often seem to be stepping away from that openness and trying to find a new handhold like a person in a swimming pool reaching for the edge rather than enjoying the freedom of floating free in the uncertainty of not knowing.

I am like a dog with a bone now and will not rest EVER until I can hold on to this slippy stone.

If the stone is practice then good. If it is understanding or concepts, let it fall already.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Kokuu]

Btw, this was an interesting reponse to a question asked to Joko Beck some time ago (full article at Tricycle here):

You think it’s a waste of time to have a breakthrough?


Not a waste of time, but it’s not the point. It doesn’t mean you know what to do with your life. You can sit for twenty years and be wasting your time. What I’m interested in is the process of awakening, the long process of development, which may, or may not, have breakthroughs as natural fruit. What genuinely concerns me is the necessity for a student to learn to be as awake as possible in each moment. Otherwise, it can seem as if the point of practice is to have breakthroughs. I’ve spent years thinking about this, and seeing how it’s ordinarily done, and I’m just saying there’s a way to teach so that people learn to use their daily life as practice—as the key to awakening. And that’s how we do it here.

[Jundo]

Kokuu,

Your first post is lovely, and so good to see you. I hope you are feeling a little better.

Gassho, J

[Koshin]

Great thread...so good to have all this fine companions to sit with

Gassho